mountainman

From another thread ...

"Paul" was packaged with the other canonical books like the gospels and acts and his visions in the 4th century were supported with Eusebius's various histories and manuals and the gruesome tales of departed martyrys. Nobody really got a good chance to do any real textual criticism of the Greek new testament in the 4th century, since the church was run by military might and agreements between the Emperor and his Bishops.

Detering in the 20th century suggests the entire Pauline corpus was fabricated in the 2nd century, Acts is sometimes seen as a 2nd century fabrication, while the Gospels themselves utterly devoid of history are not usually presented as being written by the Apostolic authors.

So at the end of the day we are dealing with the authors of the NT canonical books who are unknown and who fabricated the texts sometime in the late 1st or early 2nd century (ie: an unknown century). In regard to the rest of the non canonical NT related writings again, we are dealing with nameless and unknown Gnostic authors writing in an unknown century between the 2nd and the 5th.

My plan to start naming names and dates does not seem to be the way one is to play this game of christian origins.

mountainman

This starting assumption actually sounds likes a mixture of history and myth, rather than pure myth.
There are a number of HJ theories that postulate there was someone at the
core of the legend and that someone was historical but not recoverable
from history, and therefore allocated a very low count of "historicity".

See the three HJ positions developed in this thread.
This table from the same thread might be useful to highlight the mythical jesus,
who was a literary fabrication, either by organic scribal misunderstandings and
innocent appropriation of hearsay and stories, or by common fraudulent misrepresentation
of ancient history and pious, perhaps imperially sponsored, forgery.

Developing table as beginner's guide to Mythical Jesus positions

[T2]{r:bg=lightgray}{c:bg=slategray;ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Type of Mythical Jesus
[Historicity %]
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Status of Mythical Jesus
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Characteristics
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Worth of the gospels
|
{c:w=45;ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Use of Myth
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Published Proponents
||
{c:bg=DarkOrchid;b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Spiritual realm
[Zero %]
|
{c:bg=#FF2050;b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Existed in spiritual realm, not the mundane world
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Purely theological in origin, Jesus died in our stead not in this mundane world, but in a spiritual realm. Later this spiritual being became reconceived as having acted in this world and reified.
|
{c:bg=#E060C0;b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Embody a complex myth & reflect honest belief distorted by reification
|
{c:bg=Orange;b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Full
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Earl Doherty (*)
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Mythological composite
[Zero %]
|
{c:bg=#F00000;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Authorial invention
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Jesus was the product of mainly pagan mythological elements, be they solar myth (Acharya S) or dying & resurrection myths of Osiris/Dionysis (Freke & Gandy).
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Nothing but cobbled myths
|
{c:bg=Orange;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Full
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Acharya S, Freke & Gandy
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Fictional
[Zero %]
|
{c:bg=#F00000;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Authorial invention
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Jesus was the product of purely literary activity. In the Atwill version, it was the policy of the emperor Titus with the aid of Josephus who tried to gain control over the unruly Jews.
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}A tool for deceiving & manipulating people
|
{c:bg=#F00000;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}FRAUD (Pious Forgery)
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Hermann Detering (*), Joe Atwill (*)
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Transformed
[Zero %]
|
{c:bg=#F00000;b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Did not exist
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Jesus was the product of corrupted retelling of events relating to Julius Caesar. Under Vespasian the story was developed into a new religion.
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Underlying history garbled beyond recognition
|
{c:bg=#F00000;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}FRAUD (Pious Forgery)
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Francesco Carotta
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue;av=top}Jesus Spectrum
[0 to 100%]
|
{c:bg=#D0D0B0;av=top}Unknown
|
{c:av=top}Due to the nature of available information there is insufficient evidence to decide on the existence of Jesus.
|
{c:bg=#D0D0B0;av=top}No current way of evaluating for veracity
|
{c:bg=#D0D0B0;av=top}[-]
|
{c:av=top}Robert M. Price[/T2]

mountainman

Actually on a lofty rock at the Adana Museum, located just west of the Sabancı mosque. I dont know their hours of business aa5874.

GakuseiDon

So then, unintentially those Fourth Century apparatchiks constructed a series of letters representing earliest Christianity, but they did it in such a way as to give the impression that Jesus was never on earth?

Gee willikers, good help must have been hard to find in the Fourth Century. Constantine must have been scrapping the bottom of the barrel amongst the scribes of his day. Obviously predecessors of the writers of today's "Stargate Universe".

Frankencaster

The Jesus myth was a product of the times. Neither Romans or Jews by the first century BC probably gave much credence to exaggerted myths. They weren't stupid Bumpkins.

A prophet coming today wouldn't claim to have the Xray vision of Superman or the speed of 'The Flash'. We'd all roll our eyes.

Jesus needed to be credible to have an impact. His miracles were stuff folks could relate to. He was a social and political figure. The myths around Jesus were to prove his legitimacy via a bloodline from the Jewish god...he was a king and not a superhero.

mountainman

Letters and Gospels and Acts.
It was a package deal.
It included a "Ready Reckoner" (the Eusebian Canon Tables).
It included a "History" courtesy of Eusbeius.
It included an "In Preparation" Manual by Eusebius.
It included geographical and chronological almanacs by Eusebius
It included basilcas and tax exemptions from Constantine.
It included official military protection from Constantine.
It included official LEGAL protection from Constantine.

It was bigger than Ben Hur.
You get the drift man?


The Letters of Paul have always been looked at sideways in that regard.
Earl is only restating the obvious that Detering has already summarised.
And he is doing a good job with this. It needs to sink in.
We have been conditioned to believe without evidence.

That Jesus was on Earth was a fact that Constantine himself stressed very heavily in his Public Relations Speeches, especially the one at Antioch. Who [TF!] was going to stand up and argue with the Boss? The fact is echoed loudly in Eusebius - that Jesus was on Earth. It did not rely implicitly on the text of "Paul", which was just one patch of text in a patchwork quilt fabricated by an imperial commission. Who [TF!] needed "Paul" when you had Constantine to worry about? Dont you get it?

On the contrary, the most excellent rhetoric of the Greek Second Sophistic went into the cause of arguing the case for the Early Earthly Jesus by means of the perversion of the patristic greek literature of the day, by the despot burning and destruction of opposing literature and by the use of the army to subdue any and all dissatisfaction about the new imperial story of the Jesus Myth. The majority of people today have been conditioned by the authority perceived in the New Testament Bibles first widely published by this despotic and inventive warlord Constantine, whom the common people called "Bullneck". Bullburner (Julian) thought Bullneck's fabrication was bullshit. But the pagans got bad press in the 4th century, and the controversy was buried under the weight of inextricable anathemas of the powerful imperially connected church.

Only since the Age of Enlightment has "scripture" been questioned and textual criticism applied to this 4th century RHETORIC for the Earthly Jesus, and has questioned it, and exposed Eusebius to the suspicion of pious forgery. So what's new? The docetic Gnostic Gospels, in which for example, Jesus leaves no footprint on the planet Earth whilst walking ?

Why do the Gnostics persist in taking the mickey out of the historicity of Jesus?
Perhaps they knew something back then that we dont as yet understand?
Precisely where did Jesus kiss Mary often?

aa5874

The Romans did NOT give credence to MYTHS???

The Romans BELIEVED in a MULTITUDE of MYTHS. Have you NEVER heard of Roman/Greek Mythology and have you not heard that there are CLAIMS that Vespasian used SPIT to cure blindness based on instructions from the MYTH God called Serapis.

And are you NOT aware that Temples were BUILT for the Roman MYTH Gods and worshiped by the Deified Emperors?

If Stupidity was based on Mythology then the Romans were very dumb Bumpkins.

May I remind you that Jesus in the NT was a BABY of a holy Ghost.

And it could NOT be that LIES could legitimized Jesus unless he was a LIE.

WVIncagold

Well lets see actually how unremarkable Jesus was if you take the mysticism out of it.
He catered an event (not exactly remarkable)
First documented use of a Koolaide type substance possibly dried grape powder (turned water into "wine" again by todays standard not really remarkable)
Then got himself killed like a common criminal.
without the mysticism he is not even on the blip of a great teacher radar.

ApostateAbe

Founding the largest religion in the world is remarkable, one way or the other. It is especially remarkable if it is done by using obscure illusionist tricks.

Toto

The historical Jesus was not the founder of Christianity.