Mythra

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.

Sorry, I just can't see it. Perhaps I need to go get a few letters after my name.

Ben C Smith

Then what about this much detail?

So Festus sent forces, both horsemen and footmen, to fall upon those that had been seduced by a certain enchanter who promised them deliverance and freedom from the miseries that they were under, if they would but follow him as far as the wilderness. Accordingly, those forces that were sent destroyed both him that had deluded them, and those that were his followers also.

You chose the longest example from a range of which I stated that the Testimonium was an example from the shorter end. Then you added contextual lines both to the front and to the end of the passage...:

These works, that were done by the robbers, filled the city with all sorts of impiety. And now these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and then punished them.

....

And again the robbers stirred up the people to make war with the Romans, and said they ought not to obey them at all; and when any persons would not comply with them, they set fire to their villages, and plundered them.

...which are not describing the Egyptian. Such manipulations do not bode well for your hypothesis that, if Jesus really existed, Josephus was required to write more about him than the extant manuscripts offer.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

How you can suppose such a thing when Stephen has argued strictly from textual similarities between Tacitus and Josephus (similarities which, I might add, question the consensus on their relationship) and has agreed with Ken Olson that Eusebius was probably the interpolator (another hypothesis, I think, that goes against consensus) escapes me.

Ben.

Mythra

I understand your point Ben. And I (out of character) concede. Perhaps I overstated what I see as an anomaly.

The point remains, though, that the Jesus passage - particularly if the "after three days he arose from the dead" is included -

could not be dealt with in such a summary fashion.

There is no way that Josephus, with a wave of the hand - would have said, "oh, yeah, by the way, he came back to life after three days" and then move on to another subject.

It doesn't add up.

Mythra

And you could try this with the TF - except for the fact that the passages before and after the TF are completely unrelated.

Unless it makes sense, after talking about ten thousand wonderful things that Jesus did, then follow it up with - "about the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder"

The text flows quite well without the TF there at all:

So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome.

Ben C Smith

I agree that the context flows smoothly without the Testimonium.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

It is noble of you to admit as much. Your stock just rose three points in my book.

I think you are correct. I do not think Josephus stated matter-of-factly that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.

Ben.

Mythra

Thanks for not slamming me too hard on this one, Ben. You were kind to cut me a little slack. I do realize that Josephus passage doesn't say "that Jesus rose from the dead". It says more like - his believers supposed that he rose from the dead after three days"

I'm no scholar. But I still like studying and discussing these things.

I'm very impressed by some of the folks who post here regularly.

Doug Shaver

Not all of them. It is true that some skeptics claim that. It is just as true, and about equally relevant, that some people think the man whom Jesus' disciples saw after his execution was his twin brother.

The tampering with ancient manuscripts by some Christian scribes does not have to be conjured up. It is known to have happened on at least some occasions, and no conspiracy need be assumed to explain why or how it happened. Reasonable people can disagree about whether it happened in certain particular cases, but none of them needs any conspiracy behind it to be plausible. Plain ordinary human nature is quite sufficient.

Ben C Smith

Actually, as it stands, it does. It is only the Agapius version that qualifies it as a third-person report.

You can read many of the different versions on one of my web pages (I have provided English translations).

I am too.

Ben.