Jack the Bodiless

Mikie:

I know far more about both science AND the Bible than you do.

However, I suspect that your total inability to make any factual claims regarding science (see this thread) may well be matched by a similar inability to make factual claims regarding the Bible. I suggest you lurk awhile before entering "Biblical Criticism & History".

ZouPrime

Mikie, this is silly. Obviously, you can always say that what appears true isn't really, even if you have no reasons to think so. You could use the same argument to discredit absolutely anything.

Design is not in the scientific theory of evolution not because it is impossible, in some deus ex machina sort of way, but because it is not needed. We don't need God to explain the evolution of species. That's why we don't believe there's design. Not because we 100% ruled it out, but because we have no reasons to believe it.

For the same reason, we don't need God to explain magnetism. We don't need him to explain how the earth resolve around the sun. That doesn't mean that we're 100% sure that God isn't moving the planets with his invisible hands, it's just that we understand the principe so well that it doesn't make any sense to assume some other external entity.

scigirl

Thanks for your reply, Mikie.

Yeah yeah common ancestor. That's what I meant.

Anyway, we don't believe that we came from a common ancestor simply because we look alike. We believe it because A) we look alike, B) DNA determines how we look and C) we have very very similar DNA.
Let me get this straight. You use the statement "scientists didn't even know what all that junk DNA did" to disprove evolution. However when scientists explain how that junk DNA specifically proves evolution, you dismiss it because scientists didn't used to know what it did. Strange reasoning you got there, Mikie.

So let's actually look at what that "junk DNA" tells us:

Modified from http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html

1. Scientists hypothesized that humans and chimps came from a common ancestor (note - this was done before we discovered DNA).

2. Scientists found out that chimps have 24 chromosomes in a gamete, whereas humans have 23.

3. Scientists then speculated that during evolution, a couple of chimps had two of their chromosomes fused, and thus all the descendants of those particular chimps (i.e. you and me) had only 23 (46 in somatic cells).

4. To test this theory, scientists sequenced the chromosomes, and looked at them using other methods as well, and found these observations:

* If you line up two specific chimp chromosomes, they have the same banding patterns as our chromosome we call # 2 (occurs when certain stretches of DNA contain a lot of G's, I think). That is shown in the above picture.

* Evidence of "ends" of chromosomes are found in our chromosome 2, in exactly the right places (chromosome 2 has two telomeres - one at each end - obviously, and also has telomeres right where they should be if chromosome 2 is the result of a fusion.)

* Evidence of an extra centromere (when the chromosomes fused, one centromere stayed functional, the other did not, but the sequence indicates it used to be a centromere). Note: each chromosome only uses one centromere--it's for meiosis and mitosos.

* Chromosome fusion is not some magical unexplainable event. We have observed it in the lab. It actually happens frequently, as do transversions (parts of chromosomes get stuck on to other chromosomes)

So, the hypothesis that our chromosome 2 came from a fusion of two chimp chromosomes is well-supported by the evidence. However, if you want to infer that God just made our chromosome 2 to look like 2 chimp chromosomes, I guess you are entitled to your opinion. But that, I think, would be a faulty inference (where's your data, and explanatory mechanism, and testable prediction?)

Also, Mikie, your criticism that the extra bits might be doing something still doesn't explain a whole bunch of other "coincidences" in our DNA. It sure is a really weird freaky coincidence that the telomeres and centromeres, as well as the g banding patterns, are in the exact same spot as predicted by the evolution fusion theory. Other than telomeres (which obviously have to be at the end), none of the other pieces of DNA have to be in that exact place to function.

Maybe you don't realize that our genome is a mess. Genes are all scattered with no apparant rhyme or reason. The patterns we see in DNA between species are not there out of necessity either. You can move around and reassort our DNA, and it doesn't usually make that much difference. This is a fact known to every researcher. Genes can be anywhere, as long as they still have their promotor (the on/off switch).

Yet many of these patterns (like the g banding ones above) are conserved in the evolutionary tree. Why?

Ok tell me how to do that, as a scientist. How would a scientist allow for supernatural intervention in his/her theory? How would they look for it? How would they prove it or disprove it?

Please tell me how to prove or disprove that Allah intervened and broke our vitamin C gene, or put extra centromeres in our chromosome. What types of sequences would we look for?

Science by definition looks for natural explanations for things. Every field of science does this. However, you don't give a damn about the other scientists because other fields of science don't contradict your sheepherder stories. However, if Genesis 1 said something about gravity instead of life forms, I suspect there'd be "anti-gravitationists." It's not about science, its about your religion. Why can't you just admit that?

scigirl

SEF

An example of rapid evolution/speciation in action?!

Gregg

OK, I'm back.
Oh, trust me, I do. That's why I don't believe the stories ignorant, superstitious Bronze Age sheepherders made up to explain their world.

Look, Mikie! Look! Did you ever play this fun little game?

white
while
whale
shale
share
shark
shack
slack
black

Why, I changed white into black by changing just ONE LETTER AT A TIME! But, isn't the idea that one thing can turn into another thing through a series of small steps just sheer speculation? It must be a miracle!

Jet Black

Mod note: This thread is being closed because the OP was answered aeons ago, and the latter conversation is going nowhere. If anyone has specific points they would like to address, please start a new post.