Johnny Skeptic

Before discussing Lee Merrill’s arguments regarding the survival of the Jewish people, it is important that I mention that Jeremiah’s reputation as a prophet has been widely discredited. The Secular Web has about 212 articles about Jeremiah, and any rational minded person who reads only a few of them will quickly realize that Jeremiah’s prophecies were not inspired by God.

Okay, now I will discuss Lee Merrill’s arguments regarding the survival of the Jewish people. Following are his Scripture references.

JER 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

JER 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

JER 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

JER 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

JER 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;

JER 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

It appears that Lee seldom if ever reads Bible commentaries. I have four Bible commentaries, and none of them mention anything even remotely resembling his arguments regarding the Babylon prophecy.

Regarding Jeremiah 31, the following is from the New International Bible Commentary, general editor F. F. Bruce:

31:31-37 “The idea of a ‘new covenant’ is first stated as such here. It will unite divided people (31) – just as it does OT and NT. The law will be seen as grace. The compulsion of the law will be replaced by the willing consent of the heart (mind, 33), for the new covenant is one of the Spirit rather than the letter (2 C. 3:6). The effect will be a realization of the unchanged ideal and plan of a close relationship between the Lord and His people (33). To ‘know the Lord’ (yada) implies the close binding union through the covenant (Exod. 6:7; 7:5, 17; Dt. 7:9). An individual, without human mediation, will know God personally through His removal of the sin-barrier that has separated them from Him (34): thus the New Testament (=New Covenant) which was brought into effect through the atonement of Jesus Christ. This passage is quoted in Heb. 8:6-13; 10:14-18 and applied to the church. The security of the covenant is the faithfulness of the Creator, who mercies never fail (35-37; cf. 33:19-22). This is a classic passage for understanding the Lord’s unchanging nature as the God of order (hosts) in heaven and earth. This is basic to His being as God of law and love. His covenant and His love are consistent.�

There you have it, readers. The Jewish people have nothing whatsoever to do with the verses.

Jeremiah 33:22-26:

“The Davidic covenant is here worded to show it continues from the earlier one made with Abraham (cf. Gen. 15:5; 22:17). This is used as an answer to those who argue that God has abandoned both Israel and Judah.�

Again, there is not anything even closely resembling Lee’s arguments. Why in the world would God not want to abandon modern Jews? Hebrews 11:6 says “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.� Today, the vast majority of Jews “do not� diligently seek the Christian God, and the vast majority of Jews in Israel “do not� like for Christians to go Israel and proselytize them. It is important to note that there is no evidence that there has ever been a sizeable number of Christians Jews. The book of Acts mentions “many thousands� of Christian Jews, but I would like for Lee to produce even one single non-fundamentalist Christian historian from a leading university who will support the claim. Historians do not deter Lee in the least. After all, they are only experts who have dedicated decades of their lives to studying ancient history.

Lee says that the Babylon prophecy, and Jeremiah 31:35-37 and 33:24-26, are falsifiable. First of all, who would have anything to gain from rebuilding Babylon? If Babylon were to rebuilt, would the number of Christians in the world decrease significantly? Of course not? Would U.S. foreign policy towards Muslims change? Of course not. Regarding Jeremiah 31:35-37 and 33:24-26, the references “are not� falsifiable. The vast majority of skeptics “do not� want to kill all of the Jews. Even a good percentage of Muslims “do not� want to kill all of the Jews.

As I told Lee in the thread on the Babylon prophecy, even if God can predict the future, there is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to predict the future and goodness. I also told him that there is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead and goodness. As I showed in my thread that is titled ‘Apologists assume too much about the nature of God,’ even if Jesus “did� rise from the dead, that does not reasonably prove that God is good.

In summary, even if God “can� predict the future, and even if Jesus “did� rise from the dead, there are not any good reasons at all for anyone to become a Christian.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Fine, and some have been rebuilt, as you mention. But the point is that the truth of having a perfect divine message depends on this prediction. Thus if it is possible to rebuild this city, then a quite simple procedure to refute the Christians would be to rebuild it, plain and simple. Whether it is improbable this would happen on its own, or not.

Jerusalem is said to be an "eternal city" at some point, by the way (e.g. Joel 3:20), so the Bible is not simply restricting itself to probable guesses!

One more point, any prediction that is forever (as are the ones I mentioned), with any probability at all of being overturned, will eventually be overturned, it is only a matter of time.

There was rebuilding, it remains to be shown that it was at any time, rebuilt. The consensus, as I have read, is that it was not.

This conclusion that it did not fall according to prophecy may of course be disputed. But that is not the point being made, I am not defending every prophecy here, rather, specific ones, and in the case of Babylon, one that can be overturned at any time, fire away! It would be very clear.

I am, of course, of the view that there is a bear in the cave! Thus I shall be motivated not to bother him. You think there is no bear, therefore you are welcome to make this plain to me.

But a book that claims perfection can be disproved by failure at any point! Now the points skeptics raise are not like a rebuilt city shining in the sun, therefore I mention that, as a way for them to accomplish their purpose most effectively.

Someone who is Jewish ethnically, as in their DNA, someone (by the Biblical definition, which I hold to) descended from Abraham.

But just because he makes a point about a passage doesn't mean he thinks there are no other points in it.

I think his point is that God will not abandon them, though ("This is used as an answer to those who argue that God has abandoned both Israel and Judah"), which is in line with the prediction that there will always be Jewish people being a sure promise, which is just the point I was arguing for.

That's good! And not least of all, because Scripture says it can't be done. It's just a bad idea to oppose God:

Zechariah 12:3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

Certainly, but that is not the point at issue here, which was whether there are clear, testable prophecies in Scripture.

These would mean that God has real, and remarkable, and unique supernatural abilities, though. It might be good to get to know this Being better, if only to know how we might be affected, one way or the other.

And power over death, and knowledge of the future, aren't these two main concerns people have?

Regards,
Lee

Johnny Skeptic

God made those promises to Jews when they accepted him, not when they rejected him. What you need to do is to provide corroboration of God’s support for Jews in the New Testament. Can you do that? The parable of the fig tree will not do.

The goodness of God is in fact the entire issue. 1 Corinthians 15:14 says “And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.� Paul assumed that Jesus loved mankind, but where is any tangible evidence that that is true? There is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to predict the future and goodness. Deuteronomy 13 says that bad people can predict the future to. If the verse is true, then who know how many prophecies were made by bad people that came true that were not written down, or were possibly destroyed by followers of the God of the Bible?

Why do you assume that God’s supernatural abilities are unique? Have you checked out the entire universe and discovered that your claim is true? There is no evidence that the God of the Bible created the universe. If he exists, he might be a powerful alien being who wants people to worship him, or a powerful evil alien being who is tricking us and plans to send everyone to hell. Another possibility is that if there actually is a creator of the universe, he might be amoral.

There is no external evidence that God’s supernatural abilities have ever tangibly benefited mankind. What non-Biblical evidence can you provide that Jesus ever healed anybody? What non-Biblical evidence can you provide that Jesus fed 5,000 people with a few loaves of bread and a few fish? What non-Biblical evidence can you provide that Jesus actually died for the sins of mankind? Skeptics are more than willing to get to know this Being better. God can begin by showing up and explaining why he allowed the Bubonic Plague to kill millions of people, and why he allowed Hurricane Katrina to go ashore in Louisiana and Mississippi.

Are you so gullible that you will worship any being who has supernatural powers even though you don’t any evidence whatsoever that he is good except for subjective spiritual/emotional experiences?

There is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead and the ability to predict the future, and goodness. In addition, there is no evidence that those abilities are possessed exclusively by good beings, and only by the God of the Bible.

spin

(Inventive, "perfect divine message". You are defining the source material to suit your understanding. If I said that the USA will fall from its pivotal political position, this wouldn't be much of a prediction. Let's call a spade a spade: there is nothing marvelous about saying Babylon would fall and not be rebuilt. It was the way of the world at the time. Babylon eventually fell into disuse when the river changed course and it was not economically viable to keep it in operation. This was hundreds of years after Cyrus and the Persians who used Babylon as their capital. It's "fall" was unrelated chronologically to any historical event. A "perfect divine message" is a little more convincing when there is a chronological relationship between prediction and manifestation. This doesn't justify a connection, but it helps to convince people of such a connection.)

I have no interest in wasting my time simply to refute idiocy. You waylaid a conversation about the significance of prophecy by injecting something that is not sustainable from the sources. You merely repackage a few statements you consider prediction as "perfect divine message" and ignore the job the prophet is doing.

(The text just says from generation to generation. Greek notions of eternity weren't contemplated in Hebrew.)

So if someone says trilobites will never rule over the world again, would you assume that will eventually be overturned? You're talking unfettered blather, Lee. Can you take this prediction stuff out of this thread?


spin

NewtonPooton

whoa! i thought the bible was for non believers to try and get them over to your side. if it's for believers only, then what's the point? they already believe and don't need any convincing so why have this book?

uuhhg.

and here are some predictions/prophecies of my own. hehee...

Within the next 100 years the seas will rise to heights yet unseen and cover the greatest cities of the world. Hundreds of millions of people will die and be displaced and none of these cities will ever be rebuilt, starting with New Orleans! BWAA HA HAA HAAA HAA!

---refute THAT! yeah.


shawn

Johnny Skeptic

Excellent post, Spin. The River changing course is a very good argument. I think it was the Tigris River, and ancient Baghdad was built on the Euphrates River a few dozen miles away. The Tigris River joins the Euphrates River. Ancient Baghdad was a replacement for Babylon. Its location was deemed to be better than the location of Babylon for simple logistical reasons that most geographers will corroborate.

Regarding the Jewish people, I would like for Lee Merrill to tell us how many persons constitutes a people. It seems to me that as few as two persons can constitute a people. The texts say that less than a dozen people were on Noah's ark. Did they not constitute a people? Did Adam and Eve constitute a people?

Lee is obviously unaware that it would have been much more convincing if God had predicted that there WOULD NOT always be a Jewish people and the propehcy came true.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

How about this verse here?

Romans 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

No, but in all I know of other claimants, such testable and falsifiable prophecies are indeed not there, except the Book of Mormon, which contains page after page of prophecy copied from the Bible. The King James version! Not the same sort of claim, even here.

Well no, I'm not, however, that was not the point of the thread here.

Unless rulers set about trying to rebuild it, and fail. Twice!

And that is why you are not posting in this forum, nor trying to convince Christians that they are wrong?

Yes, they would, with a non-zero probability, and an infinite amount of time.

But Saddam tried to rebuild it! So that means it is not totally unheard of to try this.

Um, 1,000 people. I don't know, why is this number important?

Actually no, for there is a finite probability that someone will press The Red Button and we all perish. And even before then, there is a probability that an ethnic group will be absorbed, or be attacked and vanish, or a comet striking the planet, and so on.

So there is some probability each year that any given group will not remain, and thus with an infinite amount of time, every group will vanish, it is certain, unless there is intervention, to make that probability of vanishing be zero.

Which I believe there is...

Regards,
Lee

spin

If you want to live with that, fine.

I have no interest in convincing you of anything, Lee. You're beyond redemption at the moment. I just purvey substantive positions as I see them based on evidence I can find.

I post at this forum because this is an infidels forum. You are just an extraneous fellow with problems that drive you, not an infidel, to post here. You have no interest in exchanging ideas. You're just the sort of compulsive personality that many deconverts have come here to escape from. When someone talks to you here, Lee, it's usually either to show themselves why they escaped or to show others just how incoherent fundamentalist dogma is.


spin

Sauron

Actually, no. They succeeded in rebuilding both times. Both Alexander and Saddam rebuilt. You've been shown this so many times that your continued denial is just a game of dishonesty.

And since you know zero about history, so the facts aren't likely to slow you down one bit.

Yes, and Saddam succeeded as well. You've been shown photographs and you still deny it.


Which is sort of like your Babylon prophecy - with an infinite amount of time, the city would fall eventually.

Sauron

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