James The Least

The first person in the fable to recognize Jesus as the Son of God is a Roman guard. He was never a Jewish deity.

James The Least

Surprised to hear such a response from you Spin. We have excellent reasons to doubt the historicity of Paul and Peter, for much the same reason we have to doubt the historicity of Jesus. Supposedly Jewish characters who consistently dehumanize Jews and denigrate Jewish customs in their writing while venerating Gentiles for their righteousness should arouse instant suspicion. That such people do not exist outside the Bible doesn't prove they didn't exist, but it doesn't help the case either. We believe that Josephus and Lucian exist because they aren't characters in a theological and liturgical melodrama who perform miracles, like Paul and Peter do in Acts.

Rick Sumner

Except he's not, unless we are having two separate conversations.

Nothing in the post linked in my OP requires an eyewitness, nor do I ever list "eyewitness" as a requirement for a text to constitute historical evidence.

It's a non sequitur. Polybius is everything our evidence for Jesus is not, and that's what matters.

outhouse

False again


I understand tekton quite well and its use in its native tongue.

he was not a tekton of religion, nor a tekton of stone, nor wood. The fact they leave it blank has many scholars to believe he was a simple handworker.

Luke has little historicity in all this, as its like a layered onion, luke has added layers


A poor peasant in Galilee who might have lived in Nazareth, which in his time was nothing more then a tent village a best living in squalor. his family would have migrated from somewhere to start over with nothing.



jesus has no historicity at all before his teaching/healing. And what we do know the fact he's hanging out with fishermen and tax collectors, is that he had a firm grip on poverty

Atheos

I've been trying to wrap my head around why this argument should have any value.

P1: Romans would never deify a poor, peasant, hybrid tax zealot, teacher/healer

P2: Romans deified a poor, peasant, hybrid tax zealot, teacher/healer

C: Therefore the poor, peasant, hybrid tax zealot, teacher/healer was historical.

Why does your conclusion make sense if the figure was historical and make no sense if the figure was the result of pure mythology? :huh:

outhouse

because you dont make slaves or people you oppressed, your god if your going to create mythology.


You dont see the authors stumbling through the embarrassment of deifing a peasant in any other deity.

You make a heroic charactor like Hercules, or a Emporer who at that exact time was called son of god.

son of god is nothing more then the jewish romans writing and trying to keep up with the times, competing against these mortal men. Theres many places in the NT where they write in fiction or mythology to compete with roman deities that were mortal men.


I will say this applies to criterion of embarrassment



is there any other deity that was a half man half god like other hellenized deities, that was a poor oppressed enemy?

spin

If you insist. Who wrote the basic content of the Pauline letters and when? Obviously before Jesus became elevated to god status. Paul is certainly not binitarian. If Paul didn't write the letters why couldn't the writer get the Jerusalem community more christian? Doing away with Paul and projecting the writings into a much later time will just make his writings incomprehensible.

You work from the texts of Josephus, from those of Lucian, from those of Paul. These are efforts of individuals dealing with contexts. Paul is not telling you stories. If you cannot see the difference between works like Acts and the letters of Paul, it means you aren't reading them.

Sheshbazzar

Provide one verse of TEXT where he does any menial handwork.

His 'handwork' consist entirely of his 'laying on of his hands' and healing;
Matt 19:13 & 16, (Mk 10:16)
Mk 5:23 & 41,
Mk 6:2 & 5,
Mk 8:23 & 25
Lk 4:40
Note in Luke 6:1 his disciples rubbed grain with their hands. He did not.
Lk 13:11-13
Lk 24:50
Jn 8.6

These are the accounts of exactly what kind of 'handwork' it was that he daily did.
And other than these you will not once find him lifting a finger to do any other manner of 'handwork'.
You have utterly failed to provide even one verse of TEXT that ever portrays him as being a 'poor peasant'.
This is simply your imagination at work.

The TEXTS tell us that he was a wandering miracle worker, a healer, and a Prophet.
That he had sufficient funds, power to raise additional funds, and a communal 'bag' sufficient enough to be able contribute to charity in addition to being able to make nescessary purchases and needed business transactions.
John 12:6 & 13:29 as well as Matt 26:17-19

And that his ability to do so is to be equated with wealth is well demonstrated in the feeding of the multitudes.
His disciples are concerned about spending money. 'let them go and -buy- themselves bread' (Mark 6:36-37 & John 6:5)
He could multiply the 'bread' 'fish', or that wealth that they represented at will. The power to do so was in his hands. And of course by his testimony of his abilities, his powers were unlimited Matt 26:53
Not by suffering from it, but by repeatedly demonstrating to his disciples his absolute control over it.
They never needed to go hungry, or naked, when they walked with him, his hands were always sufficient to provide for the needs of all that followed him.

The disciples didn't grasp it then, and you evidently do not grasp the thrust of these stories even now.

outhouse

it doesnt say much one way or the other, but it didnt state what kind of a tekton he was so menial handworker is in line and followed by most scholars.


false

jesus preaches to the poor, and the whole camel through a needle thing.

states to give up all your possessions.


jesus ministry didnt accept money, but rather only wanted dinner scraps for healing.


christianity is based on dinner tables not churches.



two mythical sources with little to no historicity

he had no power and didnt charge, no where in scripture does it ever state jesus raised money.


as a matter of fact, when questioned about taxes, he has to send peter fishing because he's broke.



why cant mythers ever seperate biblical jesus from historical jesus??

yes biblical jesus is a deity with vast powers lol

the poor peasant traveling teacher living on dinner scraps is another story

outhouse

yes because there was a abundance of diseased straving people that needed healing, and this free health care caught on, the only thing jesus wanted was to be able to sit and eat your food while he preached of the coming kingdom of god