Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 09-25-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

I imagine the comparison referenced in the OP was from the following verses:

Quote:
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
IIRC the name Lucifer means "Morning Star".

Another (weaker) comparison has been made from the following verses, suggesting that since both are compared to a lion they are similar:
Quote:
1 Peter 5:8 Your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

Revelation 5:5 Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Excellent stuff! I am fascinated that these allusions, and possibly others do not seem to be well known on BCH!

As I deliberately posted in BCH - not "elsewhere" - has their been any academic discussion of this fascinating co-incidence - both Jesus and Lucifer being the morning star?

Any links to astrology or possibly gnostic beliefs here?

Clivedurdle · 09-25-2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

Keep in mind the bible was put together after they wrote and they had no idea the their writings would be assembled in.

But what is the imagery that is being conveyed by these references to Venus? and why should the two extremes use the same image?

Clivedurdle · 09-25-2006, 11:02 AM

http://lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

Quote:

The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains:
"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King")......

Clivedurdle · 09-25-2006, 11:07 AM

And just look at the mess this has caused!

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/nivsatan.htm

Quote:

NIV Reader, can you say to the "lord" OUT LOUD,

"Oh, lord, Thank you for giving me the NIV.
It is proper to call Jesus a fallen creature.
Jesus and Lucifer are the same.
Thank you, father."

If you can, the lord and father
you are praying to is--SATAN.

If you cannot say this, you need to
UTTERLY DESTROY
your perverted "bible". Don't even use it to "help" you.
Get a King James Bible so you can have the true word of God.
This is very serious.

Clivedurdle · 09-25-2006, 11:14 AM

http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible...orningstar.htm

Quote:

Jesus is called "the bright and morning star" for just as Venus is three days and three nights below the horizon in the underworld then arises up, so too does Jesus

I assume the above is a xian site, but they seem to have destroyed their faith.

Why could not the parallel be the other way round, with Jesus modelled on Venus, instead of the assumption that the behaviour of Venus is a type for the death and resurrection?

Amaleq13 · 09-25-2006, 11:20 AM

The passage from Isaiah appears to be applying the "title" sardonically to the king of Babylon (the context of the passage is as part of taunt against him) while the passage from Revelation is applying the "title" to Jesus seriously.

Ignoring the context and reading the "fall of Satan" into Isaiah is what creates the problem and IIRC Jerome can be blamed for introducing it.

KittyKatBlack · 09-25-2006, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

And just look at the mess this has caused!

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/niv .htm

Pfft, it says the same thing in the KJ, too. What's the difference between the two anyway? Is the NIV just a study bible or is it really different?

Clivedurdle · 09-25-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

The passage from Isaiah appears to be applying the "title" sardonically to the king of Babylon (the context of the passage is as part of taunt against him) while the passage from Revelation is applying the "title" to Jesus seriously.

Ignoring the context and reading the "fall of Satan" into Isaiah is what creates the problem and IIRC Jerome can be blamed for introducing it.

But is there not a second problem, why are Jesus and Venus conflated?

Clivedurdle · 09-25-2006, 11:43 AM

http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lake/3483/venus.html

Of course, Venus, the goddess of love, or Aphrodite, knows Mars, the god of War.

(warning - above site has yucky music!)

WishboneDawn · 09-25-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wargod

But, because the bible was "God inspired" indicate that contradictions, like this, should have been accounted for. After isn't god all knowing?

God inspired? Some may think so. I'm part of a sizable group that thinks the bible was written wholey by men with no inspiration or guidence.

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09-25-2006, 11:20 AM	#16
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	The passage from Isaiah appears to be applying the "title" sardonically to the king of Babylon (the context of the passage is as part of taunt against him) while the passage from Revelation is applying the "title" to Jesus seriously. Ignoring the context and reading the "fall of Satan" into Isaiah is what creates the problem and IIRC Jerome can be blamed for introducing it.

09-25-2006, 11:43 AM	#19
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lake/3483/venus.html Of course, Venus, the goddess of love, or Aphrodite, knows Mars, the god of War. (warning - above site has yucky music!)

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