spin

The pentacontad reckoning Stephan notes can be found here. The book is about the Qumran calendar, the best known exemplar of the 364-day calendar.

aa5874

Your claim is erroneous. You have ZERO corroboration that the Therapeutae were Jewish.

An opinion without the supporting evidence is worthless.


The Therapeutae were NOT identified as Jews but were from many places, even the Greeks and people of other countries were Therapeutae.

VC There is no evidence whatsoever that the Therapeutae in Egypt were Jews. It is wholly illogical that only Jews lived in EVERY DISTRICT of Egypt.

VC Philo did state that the Therapeutae had the Writings of Ancient men of their cult whom they used as a Model.

The Therapeutae model for the cult was also Non-jewish.

VC There is no evidence from antiquity that only Jews worshiped on the seventh day.

See the above. The Therapeutae also MODELED their teachings and Imitated Non-Jewish writings.

In the History of the Jews No Therapeutae has been identified as a Jew by name, sect or living in Judea.

In antiquity, Philo's Therapeutae were considered Christians of the Jesus cult by Church writers. See "Church History and "De Viris Illustribus".

stephan huller

There can never be definitive proof that there was only one person or one culture that ever did anything. If someone holds the Guinness Book of Records in a particular useless feat there is no proof that there wasn't some anonymous person somewhere who didn't beat his time by a few seconds or balanced three more eggs on their head. Nevertheless the Jews were always known for their devotion to the seventh day. This isn't worth even debating.

spin

Basic inability to read is inexcusable in this context.

Your pathetic attempt to ignore the basic evidence by asking for Philo to specifically state to his Jewish audience that his much praised therapeutae were Jewish can only be expected from someone who persistently hides from reality.





As indicated they weren't Greeks, Egyptians, Italians or barbarians. They were not from Egypt. When we continue through the other evidence, aa5784's denial simply looks dismal.

You can assert whatever nonsense you like. It doesn't change the fact that you're pissing into the wind.

To ordinary human beings: it's hard to think that when Philo talks about god (unqualified), he doesn't mean his god. It's hard to think when talking about the prophets (unqualified), he doesn't mean those prophets of significance to himself. aa4784 is simply in denial.

This may be true in an ideal world but it is just



in the real world.

Umm, no shit. That's meaningful... considering they were in Egypt.

Who gives a fuck what old christians thought? Do you like the company or something?

Sheshbazzar

There is something extremely -hinky- about this 'Philo's' claims.

On one hand he is telling us details of their unconventional religious practices, such as holding an all night Festival every 50 days, While on the other he claims them;
Which would seem an indication that they obeyed and followed the 'admonitions and precepts' of Moses. But do they?
Here is a bit from Moses' 'admonitions and precepts'
Where does Moses ever institute, command, or commend that an all-night 'Festival' or 'observance' be held every 50 days?

Moses commanded exactly ONE all NIGHT observance; ליל שמרים___ 'LEYIL SHEMORIM'
Moses added no other NIGHTS to be observed. This is the ONLY 'NIGHT' observance commanded in the entire Bible.

Moses never commanded anyone anywhere ever, to observe any additional 'nights'.

Moses commanded that ONE single NIGHT out of each YEAR be observed in all generations of Israel.

To add additional nights of observance, detracts from the singular sanctity of this, the one and ONLY night (singular) that is to be observed by the children of Israel in all their generations, in all of their dwellings.

If they practiced what Philo states, they did so in open violation of, and in rebellion against the Law of The Torah, and against the 'admonitions and precepts' of Moses.

spin

Just as the Qumran texts indicate. You are just repeating rabbinical views rather than those of the time.

spin

[T2](83) And after the feast they [the therapeutae] celebrate the sacred festival during the whole night; and this nocturnal festival is celebrated in the following manner: they all stand up together, and in the middle of the entertainment two choruses are formed at first, the one of men and the other of women, and for each chorus there is a leader and chief selected, who is the most honourable and most excellent of the band. (84) Then they sing hymns which have been composed in honour of God in many metres and tunes, at one time all singing together, and at another moving their hands and dancing in corresponding harmony, and uttering in an inspired manner songs of thanksgiving, and at another time regular odes, and performing all necessary strophes and antistrophes. (85) Then, when each chorus of the men and each chorus of the women has feasted separately by itself, like persons in the bacchanalian revels, drinking the pure wine of the love of God, they join together, and the two become one chorus, an imitation of that one which, in old time, was established by the Red Sea, on account of the wondrous works which were displayed there; (86) for, by the commandment of God, the sea became to one party the cause of safety, and to the other that of utter destruction; for it being burst asunder, and dragged back by a violent reflux, and being built up on each side as if there were a solid wall, the space in the midst was widened, and cut into a level and dry road, along which the people passed over to the opposite land, being conducted onwards to higher ground; then, when the sea returned and ran back to its former channel, and was poured out from both sides, on what had just before been dry ground, those of the enemy who pursued were overwhelmed and perished. (87) When the Israelites saw and experienced this great miracle, which was an event beyond all description, beyond all imagination, and beyond all hope, both men and women together, under the influence of divine inspiration, becoming all one chorus, sang hymns of thanksgiving to God the Saviour, Moses the prophet leading the men, and Miriam the prophetess leading the women. (88) Now the chorus of male and female worshippers being formed, as far as possible on this model, makes a most humorous concert, and a truly musical symphony, the shrill voices of the women mingling with the deep-toned voices of the men. The ideas were beautiful, the expressions beautiful, and the chorus-singers were beautiful; and the end of ideas, and expressions, and chorussingers, was piety; (89) therefore, being intoxicated all night till the morning with this beautiful intoxication, without feeling their heads heavy or closing their eyes for sleep, but being even more awake than when they came to the feast, as to their eyes and their whole bodies, and standing there till morning, when they saw the sun rising they raised their hands to heaven, imploring tranquillity and truth, and acuteness of understanding. And after their prayers they each retired to their own separate abodes, with the intention of again practising the usual philosophy to which they had been wont to devote themselves. (90) This then is what I have to say of those who are called therapeutae, who have devoted themselves to the contemplation of nature, and who have lived in it and in the soul alone, being citizens of heaven and of the world, and very acceptable to the Father and Creator of the universe because of their virtue, which has procured them his love as their most appropriate reward, which far surpasses all the gifts of fortune, and conducts them to the very summit and perfection of happiness.[/T2]
Umm, not Jewish??

Deny. Deny. Deny. Arrrgh.

Sheshbazzar

I did not repeat nor quote any rabbinical views.

These are the Laws given by Moses that stood in the Torah of that time as well as before;
There were no rabbi's when these words of The Torah of Moses were first penned.

I'm not one arguing that 'Philo's' 'Theraputae' were not 'Jewish' (if Philo actually composed VC, and if these ever existed)
I am pointing out that, as 'Philo' describes their practices, they did not keep and observe what Moses in The Torah had commanded.

spin

True but you don't know what has been added and removed from the text you now have. This plea is just the same as the christian plea of "our book says it covers our ass". Philo is giving you a variety of pre-christian Judaism. Appealing to Deut. like this doesn't make that Judaism any less Judaism. And I don't see the relevance of Ex here.

Toto

You have no evidence. You have a third hand opinion, which wikipedia got from the Jewish Encyclopedia, which got it from some ideologically motivated 19th c. German Protestant, that VC differs in some way from the rest of Philo's opus. Or you have a passle of modern scholars who state the opposite.

We're closing in on 1000 posts in this thread, and you have yet to produce any evidence. When will this investigation start?


Please address the idea that the term Therapeutae is generic and applies to a variety of religious devotees.

Then please explain why Philo's therapeutae should be connected to pagan therapeutae.


I don't see anything in this speculative argument that says anything other than what we already know - Eusebius found a description of Philo's Therapeutae and tried to turn them into proto-Christians. Nothing in this requires that Philo did anything other than describe a sect of Jewish ascetics.

Have you thought about taking the Dan Brown route? Conspiracy based novels are pretty popular. But you don't have anything here that looks like actual history.