BadBadBad

Tim Muse seems to differentiate between total depravity and utter depravity. Rather than derail another thread, I was hoping we could continue that here.

http://www.liberty.edu/academics/rel....cfm?PID=10316

"'Total depravity' afflicts the entire human race. 'Utter depravity' shows the depths to which our race's common affliction of 'total depravity' can take us apart from the salvation of God through Jesus Christ! Thanks be to God there is deliverance through God's Son from 'total depravity' and yes even 'utter depravity' by His infinite grace!! May it be so!"

So my question is this. Apart from the salvation of God through Jesus Christ, what limits us from "utter" depravity? Why is it that we have a conscience limiting us from "utter" depravity and yet we have no conscience that limits us from "total" depravity?

Also, I permanently reject God. I blaspheme the Holy Spirit. These are unforgiveable sins against God according to Mark 3:22-30. If I murder a man with my car driving home drunk from a bar, I'm just totally depraved. If I murder 6 million men, then I'm utterly depraved. Why do Christians differentiate sin based upon the impact of sin against mankind instead of the impact against God? Why would a Christian deny that atheists are utterly depraved for their utter sins against God?

Eldarion Lathria

It's like the difference between 'sin' and 'iniquity'. Total depravity describes the Christian's earthly condition. Utter depravity describes the god of the old and new Testaments. If any being (real or imaginary) was/is depraved, that godlet is.

Eldarion Lathria

BadBadBad

Sin: an offense against religious or moral law
Iniquity - a wicked act or sin
Wicked - morally very bad - Evil

In God's eyes, what's the difference between morally bad and morally very bad, and is that difference based upon what we do to each other or what we do to God?

I never thought of it that way. Jesus is the model of perfectness without sin. God is the model for perfect and utter depravity. The Holy Spirit is both simultaneously. Oh, and we both just blasphemed the Holy Spirit. I wonder if Tim Muse joins us whether he will presume I am totally depraved like he did here, or if now, he'll reconsider and declare me utterly depraved?

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

I thank BBB for starting this thread (though with the weekend approaching, I'm limited to participate) for I did not want to proceed with derailing the other thread either. For this, I commend BBB.

Total Depravity - (Steele, Thomas, Quinn) "When Calvinsts aspeak of man as being totally depraved they mean that man's nature is corrupt, perverse, and sinful throughout. The adjective 'total' does not mean that each sinner is as totally or completely corrupt in his actions and thoughts as it is possible for him to be. Instead, the word 'total' is used to indicate that the whole of man's being has been affected by sin. The corruption extends to every part of man, his body and soul; sin has affected all (the totality) of man's faculties - his mind, his will, etc."

Utter Depravity - (R.C. Sproul) "To be utterly depraved is to be as wicked as one could possibly be. Hitler was extremely depraved, but he could have been worse than he was. I am sinner. Yet I could sin more often and more severely than I actually do. I am not utterly depraved, but I am totally depraved. "

What limits man (apart from salvation in Jesus Christ) from being worse than we are? Answer: God's common grace.

Examples:
1 God has implemented authorities - which keep some from being worse
2. We sometimes will not do what we might otherwise do because of peer pressure, the desire to be thought well of, the consequences if caught, etc.
3. The list could go on.

Why has God done this?
Ans: For the preservation and propagation of his gospel.
For the preservation and protection and gathering of his church.

steamer

Either utter or total depravity seems to be blatantly false.

Even Hitler couldn't manage either.

Only Christians imagine men this way. It is a Christian thing that cannot be applied to anything but the Christian imagination.

espritch

Is it considered utter or total depravity when a priest boinks and alter boy?

BadBadBad

If we are depraved throughout our entire being and soul, how much more depraved could we be?

As wicked as one can possibly be to whom?

From the OP:

God has implemented restrictions to limit our wickedness. This also necessarily limits our sins against God right? Why has God not chosen to limit our wickedness just a bit further?

And also from the OP:

I permanently reject God. I blaspheme the Holy Spirit. These are unforgiveable sins against God according to Mark 3:22-30. If I murder a man with my car driving home drunk from a bar, I'm just totally depraved. If I murder 6 million men, then I'm utterly depraved. Why do Christians differentiate sin based upon the impact of sin against mankind instead of the impact against God? Why would a Christian deny that atheists are utterly depraved for their utter sins against God?

ziffel

Was Hitler one of the authorities that God implemented? How about Pol Pot, Hussein, Edi Amin, Stalin, Kim Jong Il, etc etc?

Mankind has implemented it's own authorities. God does not speak, is not visible and does absolutely nothing with mankind. If he does, he's doing a pretty shitty job. Even the ones that claim to be in his service are often bumbling morons or worse.

BadBadBad

Was Hitler one of God's authorities sent to limit our wickedness? That's interesting. Hitler killed stiffnecked and rebellious Jews. Who knows how wicked those Jews could have become? Was it God's common grace that Tim mentions above, or is it that God's common grace only limits our wickedness inconsistently and ineffectively?

If God intended to limit our wickedness to protect and propagate his gospel, why would he not limit the wickedness of Hitler who killed millions of his chosen people?

cajela

OK, I get the distinction. Total is the extent, utter is the depth.

But what a very sad view of life, regardless. To be Rev Tim's flavour of Xian you have to lose all self-respect. And who was that guy the other week who said you have to hate the world to be a Christian? There's another. Poor guys. Perhaps a decent therapist could help.