Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 12-15-2006, 08:31 AM

What exactly does the part in bold say in the Greek? Does it call Jesus "christos" or does it use words for anointed, etc?

Are there any other aspects of this translation that need more clarification?

Quote:

"And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent. Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest."

Peter Kirby · 12-15-2006, 08:49 AM

It can be viewed at Perseus along with morphological data.

I would like to head off the claim of queerness of placing the apposite phrase before the name "James". Any claim of queerness should be based on what is actually queer for Josephus and his Greek, not our sensibility.

--
Peter Kirby

Clivedurdle · 12-15-2006, 09:02 AM

Why does anyone think this passage has anything to do with "Jesus Christ"?

It is discussing one or more high priest Jesus who sound like a title "annointed one" was used!

Is not the burden of proof on those to show this is referring to "Jesus Christ" and not high priest Jesuses who specialised in making the annointing oils?

Why does this feel so like seeing Jesus on Mars or whatever?

gstafleu · 12-15-2006, 09:03 AM

IOW: Iêsou tou legomenou Christou, pretty standard gospel fare, I'd say (cf eg Mat 1:16).

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu · 12-15-2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

It is discussing one or more high priest Jesus who sound like a title "annointed one" was used!

Well, except that the language Josephus uses is identical to e.g. Mat 1:16.

Gerard Stafleu

spin · 12-15-2006, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

I would like to head off the claim of queerness of placing the apposite phrase before the name "James". Any claim of queerness should be based on what is actually queer for Josephus and his Greek, not our sensibility.

I thought I'd waffled through the queerness issue a number of times, claiming it was too queer. If you want to head it off, all you need to do is find a regular use of such a complex contortion of the normal order of things, especially without a previous mention of the fronted relative, and that relative not be father but brother, the whom needs qualification himself thus

and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others

rather than

and brought before them James, the brother of Jesus called Christ, and some others

OK, start heading off...

spin

Peter Kirby · 12-15-2006, 09:07 AM

Interesting, right away we see two diametrically opposed views: first, that this has nothing to do with Gospel Jesus, and second, that this is "pretty standard gospel fare"!

I hope you two can duke it out on this one.

--
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby · 12-15-2006, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I thought I'd waffled through the queerness issue a number of times, claiming it was too queer. If you want to head it off, all you need to do is find a regular use of such a complex contortion of the normal order of things, especially without a previous mention of the fronted relative, and that relative not be father but brother, the whom needs qualification himself thus

"and that relative not be father but brother"? hmm? why are we overdetermining already what we will examine for evidence? why are we even limiting ourselves to relatives anyway? isn't this a question of Greek construction? shouldn't the syntactic structure be isolatable independent of the semantic content (relatives like brothers, mothers, sisters, fathers, etc.)?

"especailly without a previous mention of the fronted relative"? Land mine alert!

--
Peter Kirby

Clivedurdle · 12-15-2006, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Well, except that the language Josephus uses is identical to e.g. Mat 1:16.

Gerard Stafleu

Never played chinese whispers?

Malachi151 · 12-15-2006, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Well, except that the language Josephus uses is identical to e.g. Mat 1:16.

Gerard Stafleu

It is?

Quote:

Matthew 1:

5 and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, 6 and Jesse the father of King David.

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12-15-2006, 08:49 AM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	It can be viewed at Perseus along with morphological data. I would like to head off the claim of queerness of placing the apposite phrase before the name "James". Any claim of queerness should be based on what is actually queer for Josephus and his Greek, not our sensibility. -- Peter Kirby

12-15-2006, 09:02 AM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Why does anyone think this passage has anything to do with "Jesus Christ"? It is discussing one or more high priest Jesus who sound like a title "annointed one" was used! Is not the burden of proof on those to show this is referring to "Jesus Christ" and not high priest Jesuses who specialised in making the annointing oils? Why does this feel so like seeing Jesus on Mars or whatever?

12-15-2006, 09:03 AM	#4
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	IOW: Iêsou tou legomenou Christou, pretty standard gospel fare, I'd say (cf eg Mat 1:16). Gerard Stafleu

12-15-2006, 09:07 AM	#7
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Interesting, right away we see two diametrically opposed views: first, that this has nothing to do with Gospel Jesus, and second, that this is "pretty standard gospel fare"! I hope you two can duke it out on this one. -- Peter Kirby

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