Freethought & Rationalism Archive

OneInFundieville · 11-16-2007, 12:04 AM

Seems like the "royal we" hypothesis is out of context with much of the religious beliefs of the place and of the time.

BWE · 11-16-2007, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salam

The word Us here or Eloyem is for respect. I don't know what do they call it in English, but in Arabic and also Hebrew -since both of them are semantic languages- this is called "the plural of respect" and it's used a lot.

Exactly like in the Quran, when God is talking about him self, God uses "the plural of respect".

You should read the verse. There is a grammatical notion of "partitive" (of a mass or a group) expressed in the Hebrew MMNW, and when preceded by a number it makes the partitive refer to a plural (a group), as in one from among many. It is therefore necessarily a logical plural and there is no room for your "plural of respect", unless you can put some singular which makes sense into "one from among ____."

spin

Right. Let's see how the various translations do:
NIV

Quote:

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

The Message:

Quote:

22 God said, "The Man has become like one of us, capable of knowing everything, ranging from good to evil. What if he now should reach out and take fruit from the Tree-of-Life and eat, and live forever? Never—this cannot happen!"

Quote:

Genesis 3:22 (Amplified Bible)
22And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us [the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit], to know [how to distinguish between] good and evil and blessing and calamity; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live [a]forever--

Quote:

Genesis 3:22 (New Living Translation)
22 Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings[a] have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!”

Quote:

(Contemporary English Version)
22The LORD said, "These people now know the difference between right and wrong, just as we do. But they must not be allowed to eat fruit from the tree that lets them live forever."

Quote:

Genesis 3:22 (Contemporary English Version)
22The LORD said, "These people now know the difference between right and wrong, just as we do. But they must not be allowed to eat fruit from the tree that lets them live forever."

Quote:

Genesis 3:22 (New Century Version)
22 Then the Lord God said, "Humans have become like one of us; they know good and evil. We must keep them from eating some of the fruit from the tree of life, or they will live forever."

Quote:

Genesis 3:22 (Young's Literal Translation)
22And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

Quote:

Genesis 3:22 (Darby Translation) 22And Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, Man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ...!

Quote:

Genesis 3:22 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
22 The LORD God said, "Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, and also take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." (A)

I'm not thinkin that looks like the plural of respect so much as a jealous Don. And, where in genesis is a reference to the father, son and/ or holy ghost?

I'm pretty sure that this is a holdover from polytheism. Note how God doesn't want any more to be joining his ranks? He has to hurry up and make sure that these little bastards will die that they don't usurp his power. Smacks a bit of zeus' power struggles, eh?

xaxxat · 11-16-2007, 09:04 AM

Who is "us" in Genesis 3:22?

The Annunaki...

Amaleq13 · 11-16-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Who is "us" in Genesis 3:22?

The Annunaki...

You forgot to cite a source.

Zecharia Sitchin, perhaps?

Gorit Maqueda · 11-16-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salam

I don't know what do they call it in English, but in Arabic and also Hebrew -since both of them are semantic languages- this is called "the plural of respect" and it's used a lot.

Dou you mean that other languages bear no meaning?

Robert Byers · 11-20-2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWE

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

You should read the verse. There is a grammatical notion of "partitive" (of a mass or a group) expressed in the Hebrew MMNW, and when preceded by a number it makes the partitive refer to a plural (a group), as in one from among many. It is therefore necessarily a logical plural and there is no room for your "plural of respect", unless you can put some singular which makes sense into "one from among ____."

spin

Right. Let's see how the various translations do:
NIV

The Message:

Quote:

Genesis 3:22 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
22 The LORD God said, "Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, and also take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." (A)

I'm not thinkin that looks like the plural of respect so much as a jealous Don. And, where in genesis is a reference to the father, son and/ or holy ghost?

I'm pretty sure that this is a holdover from polytheism. Note how God doesn't want any more to be joining his ranks? He has to hurry up and make sure that these little bastards will die that they don't usurp his power. Smacks a bit of zeus' power struggles, eh?

The terms "us" and "our" in Genesis refer to the true God which is three in one. The trinity. It is not expounded upon by the old testament as it required the arrival of christ to make all understandable.
In fact it shows the truth of scripture by using terms the old testament audience would be ignorant of.

In fact it also shows how the bible was unaffected by later editing. The Jews only had one God and yet the "ys" stayed in all the Bible all those centuries.

The terms are not semantic flourishes but expected to be taken as read.
This is good evidence for scripture coming from man and not God.
Robert Byers

spin · 11-20-2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Byers

The terms "us" and "our" in Genesis refer to the true God which is three in one. The trinity.

Sure, Jewish literature is telling us about the post-biblical christian idea of the trinity. The other leg plays jingle bells.

spin

driver8 · 11-21-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Student of Sophia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It refers to YHWH and his fellow gods, since the Hebrews were not monotheists when this was written.

Yes, the other members of the Divine Council (or family) of El apparently. One of whom, it seems, was Goddess of Israel Asherah.

Bingo. We have a winner!

http://cc.usu.edu/%7Efath6/bible.htm

Quote:

Before the Hebrew Bible was written, the Semitic religions of the Middle East universally distinguished between El, sometimes called Bull El to emphasize his great power and fertility in his role as the Father of the Gods, and the Great Assembly of those other gods, his children. El was also referred to as the Father of Years, and the Father of Humanity, names that emphasize his role the the antecedent and ultimate source of all things. This name continued to be used for the Supreme God of the Hebrew religion in biblical times, although it had also come to be used as a generic term meaning "(a) god" as well.

Quote:

Like the Canaanites, the Hebrews regarded the true name of their tribal god, Yahweh, as too sacred for common use, and they too usually called him simply "Lord" (Hebrew adonai or, sometimes, baal). As the original occupants of the lands which were taken by the Hebrews to form their own kingdom, the Canaanites were the traditional enemies of Israel, but the deity that each held to be the king of the gods should probably be understood as having been been the same deity. The parallels between Ba'al and Yahweh are quite detailed. For instance, both peoples referred to him, in his role as the god of storms and war by the euphemism, "the rider on the clouds (KTU 1.3 II 40 and Psalm 68:5). Both are portrayed as overcoming their enemies Yamm (Psalm 74:13; Job 7:12; 26:12; 38:8) and his henchman Litan called the Fleeing Serpent,.the Twisty Serpent, Potentate with Seven Heads and, in Hebrew, Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1 and Psalm 74:13-14; Job 3:8;40:25). So it is more likely that, whatever the origin of his name, Yahweh took over the history of Ba'al in Hebrew folklore and is best understood as the Hebrew equivalent of that Canaanite god.That Yahweh was originally a son of El is attested by a document (KTU 1.1 IV 14) from Ugarit, a Palestinian site occupied by neighbors of Israel. It reads sm . bny . yw . ilt, which translates as "The name of the son of god, Yahweh." This status as the foremost of the sons of El is remembered in the Song of Moses, one of the oldest of the Hebrew scriptures, in Deuteronomy 32:8-9: "When the Elyon [another name of El] apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods [i.e., each god controlled one nation of people]; Yahweh's own portion was his people, Jacob [i.e., the nation of Israel] his alloted share." (1.)

Yahweh ruled as the king of the other children of El. In this role, he presided whenever the Assembly of the Gods whenever they met in council. The preeminance of Yahweh over the other gods is repeatedly asserted in Psalms. For instance, in Psalm 86, we are told that "There is none like you among the gods, O Yahweh" (Psalm 86:8), and Psalm 89 is even more specific in explaining that the "gods" in question are the sons of El who met as the Assembly of the Gods:

The heavens praise your wonders, 0 Yahweh,
your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones.
For who in the skies can be compared to Yahweh?
Who among the sons of gods is like Yahweh?
a God feared in the council of the holy ones,
great and awesome above all that are around him?
(Psalms 89:5-7)

etc., etc., etc.

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11-16-2007, 12:04 AM	#21
OneInFundieville Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Where I go Posts: 2,168	Seems like the "royal we" hypothesis is out of context with much of the religious beliefs of the place and of the time.

11-16-2007, 09:04 AM	#23
xaxxat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Space Station 33 Posts: 2,543	Who is "us" in Genesis 3:22? The Annunaki...

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