Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MCalavera · 10-09-2011, 08:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

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Originally Posted by MCalavera

Mark 1:1 - Jesus, the Messiah

Mark 8:29 - Peter believes Jesus is the Messiah

Mark 8:30 - Jesus expresses no disapproval of this. Instead, like many cult leaders, he urges his followers to keep certain things secret from the public.

I'm not accepting 8:29-30 as unambiguous proof. Granted, it can be read that way.

So, to you, Mark does not need 16.9-20 to make his point? Mark 1:1 is supposed to settle the issue for the reader. If one were to read Mark(sans 16.9-20) and say, "this guy doesn't seem like the Messiah to me", they're just plain wrong?

No mystery?

Jesus doesn't seem like the Messiah to me at all whether upon reading Mark, Luke, Matthew, John, etc.

But Mark (without that extra passage at the end) states Jesus is Messiah. And as for Mark 8:29-30, Peter said Jesus is the Messiah, right?

Did Jesus deny it in his response? No, he implicitly accepted it.

If Jesus didn't think of himself as the Christ, why didn't the author of Mark point this out? He had the chance to do so in verse 30.

MCalavera · 10-09-2011, 08:32 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by MCalavera

...Neither Peter nor Paul were believed to be the Messiah.

Evidence please!!!!

And also provide evidence of antiquity that there was an HJ of Nazareth, an ordinary man, that was believed to be the Messiah by the Jews BEFORE the Fall of the Temple c 70 CE.

In gMark, Jesus was NOT known as the Messiah, did NOT want anyone to call him the Messiah. Peter later DENIED he ever knew Jesus or was associated with him on the very same day he was arrested after the other disciples FLED.

The supposed HJ of gMark was REJECTED as the Son of Blessed and Messiah the very same day he was crucified.

The supposed HJ of gMark did NOT start a NEW RELIGION under the name of CHRIST up to the very day he died. HJ of gMark was ABANDONED, DENIED and REJECTED.

There was nobody in gMark promoting the ABANDONED, DENIED and REJECTED Jesus as a Messiah on the day his dead body was MISSING from the Grave.

The visitors RAN AWAY, DUMBSTRUCK right at the end of Sinaiticus Mark.

The supposed HJ of Sinaiticus gMark was a DOOMED FAILURE and was NOT the basis for the NEW RELIGION under the name of CHRIST.

Peter did NOT know HJ and the others ALL RAN AWAY.

It was the RESURRECTED MYTH Jesus of Mark 16.9-20that INITIATED the NEW RELIGION under the name of CHRIST.

MARK 16.

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Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.............

20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel", gMark is the perfect HJ argument killer.

Denial out of fear and confusion.

Their Messiah was arrested and to be crucified. Their Messiah failed in their eyes.

How did you expect them to react?

aa5874 · 10-09-2011, 08:32 PM

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Originally Posted by MCalavera

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

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Originally Posted by aa5874

HJ of Nazareth is NOT the FOUNDATION of the Jesus cult.

However, the Last Twelve VERSES, Mark 16.9-20, is the basis for the Jesus cult.

I'm sure you're aware that Mark 16.9-20 is widely considered an addition.

I know there's no consensus on whether or not gMark was a Greek tragedy, but one thing seems certain: it's designed to be ambiguous, mysterious. As though the reader is supposed to decide if Jesus was the Messiah or not. What that says about gMark's author and the early church I'm not sure, but if 16.9-20 was added, it seems clear the addition was intended to remove doubt.

Mark 1:1 - Jesus, the Messiah

Mark 8:29 - Peter believes Jesus is the Messiah

Mark 8:30 - Jesus expresses no disapproval of this. Instead, like many cult leaders, he urges his followers to keep certain things secret from the public.

But, you seem to have forgotten that Peter did DENY THREE TIMES that he ever knew Jesus on the same day Jesus was ARRESTED in gMark.

Mark 14

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But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

There was nobody promoting Jesus as a Messiah on the day he was crucified in gMark.

Jesus was REJECTED as a Messiah which means the JEWS either found their expected Messiah or was still searching.

The day Jesus died and was REJECTED the hopes of being a Messiah also faded instantly and simultaneously for Jesus.

MCalavera · 10-09-2011, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Mark 1:1 - Jesus, the Messiah

Mark 8:29 - Peter believes Jesus is the Messiah

Mark 8:30 - Jesus expresses no disapproval of this. Instead, like many cult leaders, he urges his followers to keep certain things secret from the public.

But, you seem to have forgotten that Peter did DENY THREE TIMES that he ever knew Jesus on the same day Jesus was ARRESTED in gMark.

Mark 14

Quote:

But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

There was nobody promoting Jesus as a Messiah on the day he was crucified in gMark.

Jesus was REJECTED as a Messiah which means the JEWS either found their expected Messiah or was still searching.

The day Jesus died and was REJECTED the hopes of being a Messiah also faded instantly and simultaneously for Jesus.

The text of Mark speaks against you.

aa5874 · 10-09-2011, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Denial out of fear and confusion.

Their Messiah was arrested and to be crucified. Their Messiah failed in their eyes.

How did you expect them to react?

Well, that is what we expect, Confusion and fear.

We don't expect Peter and the disciples to make the same BLASPHEMOUS statements like Jesus and get crucified or stoned to death.

We don't expect them to GO PUBLIC and begin to LIE and tell people Jesus was RAISED from the dead and that he ascended to heaven when they DON'T even know the location of the dead body of Jesus.

We expect them to GO INTO HIDING. We expect the Jews and the Romans to seek them out to have them imprisoned, beaten or EXECUTED.

We certainly don't expect a NEW RELIGION whose actual leader was a known FALSE prophet and a Blasphemer.

gMark is certainly the Perfect HJ argument killer.

Horatio Parker · 10-09-2011, 08:59 PM

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Originally Posted by MCalavera

Jesus doesn't seem like the Messiah to me at all whether upon reading Mark, Luke, Matthew, John, etc.

That's a dodge.

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But Mark (without that extra passage at the end) states Jesus is Messiah. And as for Mark 8:29-30, Peter said Jesus is the Messiah, right?

Did Jesus deny it in his response? No, he implicitly accepted it.

Nor did he explicitly confirm it. Ambiguous, a mystery.

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If Jesus didn't think of himself as the Christ, why didn't the author of Mark point this out? He had the chance to do so in verse 30.

Mark didn't point it out because he meant it to be a mystery.

And Mark 1:1 isn't authoritative. It's missing in several early versions. I checked after I posted....

MCalavera · 10-09-2011, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Jesus doesn't seem like the Messiah to me at all whether upon reading Mark, Luke, Matthew, John, etc.

That's a dodge.

Nor did he explicitly confirm it. Ambiguous, a mystery.

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If Jesus didn't think of himself as the Christ, why didn't the author of Mark point this out? He had the chance to do so in verse 30.

Mark didn't point it out because he meant it to be a mystery.

And Mark 1:1 isn't authoritative. It's missing in several early versions. I checked after I posted....

You're accusing me of dodge, and yet you dodge the argument about how Jesus didn't deny but implicitly agreed.

You make it sound like it's ambiguous but the most "common sense" interpretation is that he agreed but was being mysterious with his disciples.

He speaks like your typical cult leader. Mysteries and all.

More verses to confirm more and more my argument.

Mark 10:47-48 - Jesus the Son of David.

Mark 12:35 - Jesus speaks of the Messiah as the Son of David. He's referring to himself but doesn't go explicit about it.

Again, another verse:

Mark 14:61 - Jesus doesn't deny that he is the Messiah. He stays silent. Once again, the author of Mark doesn't make it a point that he isn't.

Mark 15:32 - Jesus is again referred to as the Messiah.

My position is more parsimonious. You have to deny what the texts state whether explicitly or implicitly.

aa5874 · 10-09-2011, 10:14 PM

In gMark, if it supposed that Jesus was a man then at Mark 16.8 the Jesus story ENDS in diasater.

Judas had betrayed Jesus, The disciples had FLED, and Peter had DENIED Jesus.

The disciples FLED and Peter DENIED Jesus because of FEAR and Confusion.

This is EXACTLY what we EXPECT if Jesus was a man who was EXECUTED as a BLASPHEMER.

Once the disciples EXHIBIT FEAR at the arrest of Jesus then we would NOT expect them to start a NEW religion based on the Blasphemy knowing that they would be executed in the same manner.

Once Jesus was dead the movement is EXPECTED to collapse.

At Mark 16.8, the Jesus movement has CRASHED and was DEVASTATED.

There was NO BODY, and NO DISCIPLES.

We EXPECT the Jews and Romans to HUNT down the other 11 and JAIL or Execute them.

J-D · 10-09-2011, 11:37 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

If one supposes for the sake of argument that the Jesus of gMark was ONLY a man, an HJ, then as we reach Mark 16.8, the last verse of the earliest Canonized gMark, it will be realized that an HJ as described in gMark could NOT be the FOUNDATION of the early Jesus movement.

If one supposes for the sake of argument that the account up to Mark 16:8 records what happened up to a particular point in time, then obviously that account does not tell us what happened after that point in time.

aa5874 · 10-10-2011, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

If one supposes for the sake of argument that the account up to Mark 16:8 records what happened up to a particular point in time, then obviously that account does not tell us what happened after that point in time.

Well, if one supposes that gMark is account of a man called Jesus and that the account was written DECADES after then the author of gMark had NOTHING else significant to write and ENDED his story at Mark 16.8.

The Sinaiticus Jesus story was one of TOTAL FAILURE, REJECTION and ABANDONMENT by the Jews and also by his very own HAND-PICKED apostles.

The author of Sinaiticus and Vatinicus gMark is a STORY where Jesus as a man did NOT start any NEW RELIGION under the name of CHRIST and that his 12 followers had ABANDONED HIM on the day he died.

In the Sinaiticus gMark, The Betrayed, Abandoned, and Rejected Jesus was NOT claimed to have started a NEW religion or that the same disciples who had abandoned Jesus started a new religion.

Sinaiticus gMark is a story of TOTAL DEVASTATION of a character called Jesus and his Hand-Picked apostles.

It was ANOTHER LATER author who wrote Mark 16.9-20 that gave an account of how a MYTHOLOGICAL Resurrected Jesus was responsible for a NEW RELIGION.

These are the words of the resurrected MYTH.

Mr 16:15 -

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And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The resurrected MYTH is the GOOD News, the Gospel.

gMark is a perfect HJ argument killer.

If Jesus was a man and did as stated in Sinaiticus gMark we would have NO GOOD NEWS, NO GOSPEL, NO NEW RELIGION just total REJECTION and DECEPTION.

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10-09-2011, 10:14 PM	#18
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	In gMark, if it supposed that Jesus was a man then at Mark 16.8 the Jesus story ENDS in diasater. Judas had betrayed Jesus, The disciples had FLED, and Peter had DENIED Jesus. The disciples FLED and Peter DENIED Jesus because of FEAR and Confusion. This is EXACTLY what we EXPECT if Jesus was a man who was EXECUTED as a BLASPHEMER. Once the disciples EXHIBIT FEAR at the arrest of Jesus then we would NOT expect them to start a NEW religion based on the Blasphemy knowing that they would be executed in the same manner. Once Jesus was dead the movement is EXPECTED to collapse. At Mark 16.8, the Jesus movement has CRASHED and was DEVASTATED. There was NO BODY, and NO DISCIPLES. We EXPECT the Jews and Romans to HUNT down the other 11 and JAIL or Execute them.

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