Freethought & Rationalism Archive

06-06-2004, 07:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Magus55

We don't start out as believers. It requires being an unbeliever first before you can be a believer.

Before you became a Christian, did you investigate each and every religion with a keen and critical eye, taking into account any and all evidence for and against each particular one?

Warthur · 06-06-2004, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

This is a false reading of Matt 24 by atheists. Jesus is describing the end times events. Why would Jesus need to tell the Apostles to write down the end times events and "this generation" if they were the only ones who were gonna see it? The Bible was written for future generations, not the 1st century generation.

Odd, then, that the vast majority of the early Christians were absolutely convinced that theirs was the last generation.

dado · 06-06-2004, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Says who?

says the lineage(s) provided in the canonical gospels. none of them meet the criteria laid out in Tanakh for HaMashiak. it takes more than being "Davidian", in fact the gospel redactors got it so wrong they not only gave (multiple) insufficient lineages, they gave (multiple) lineages that are specifically *excluded* from messiahship.

ah well...

Starboy · 06-06-2004, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Hmm funny. He communicates with me. He communicates with a lot of other people. Maybe your just expecting the wrong kind of communication. He opened communication with Jesus and the Bible. If you don't accept that form of communication, why would He be expected to bother with any more?

Very interesting, when you read the bible god is talking to you but when you read anything else it is not? Is the Mad Hatter talking to you when you read "Alice in Wonderland"?

Starboy

Warthur · 06-06-2004, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dado

says the lineage(s) provided in the canonical gospels. none of them meet the criteria laid out in Tanakh for HaMashiak. it takes more than being "Davidian", in fact the gospel redactors got it so wrong they not only gave (multiple) insufficient lineages, they gave (multiple) lineages that are specifically *excluded* from messiahship.

Out of interest, what are the requirements for messiahship, and for disqualification?

Queen of Swords · 06-06-2004, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

How do you know there is no god? Are you basing this on scientific fact, or your own unsupportable opinion?

How do you know there are no leprechauns? Are you basing this on scientific fact, or your own unsupportable opinion?

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You are no more grown up than theists are, and possibly even less so since the majority of your posts are temper tantrums

The same could be said for you.

Magus55 · 06-06-2004, 07:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Hyndis

If Christianity was true, and such a god really did exist and had that kind of power, a good way to convince people would be to leave powerful artifacts scattered about, things that could only be the creation of an immensely powerful and intelligent being.

If the Holy Grail did actually exist, and actually brought healing and/or eternal life to people who drank from it, I'd probably be a devout Christian today.

And you think leaving that kind of power in the open hands of so many people is a smart move? Thats like handing a terrorist a nuclear bomb and giving him diplomatic immunity with an all expense paid trip to Washington DC.

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In fact, I'd like very much for a religion to be true! It would be so nice to sort of have everything taken care of, so long as the rules are followed. But instead of any sort of concrete proof at all, we have chaos and contradictions.

Humanity brings Chaos and Contradiction, not God.

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If the word of god was such an important thing, then why has it been corrupted through the ages? The Bible itself is contradictory in many, many places. I'm sure others around here would be glad to point those verses out. But, both the Bible and Koran claim to contain the word of god, and yet they are nothing alike! Going further, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, and thousands of other religions also claim to have the meaning of life and the best way to live it. Yet many of these are very contradictory.

Even with small problems or inconsistencies through a thousand years of translation, the Bible is still the most preserved and well copied manuscripts in history. There is no other document on Earth that has stood the test of time as well as the Bible. Apparently there is just no making skeptics happy.

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Hindus believe that the best way to live life is to do one's duty. So if you're born to a military family, it is your duty to fight. If you're from a shop owner's family, then you're a merchant, and so forth. Doing one's duty causes good karma so that you get promoted in the next life.

Doing good works is an important thing Biblically as well. It just doesn't save you.

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For Christians, its either good works or faith that get one to heaven. And Christians are divided among themselves about which one is it, and that caused a pretty big event some 400 years ago.

Does it make sense that as flawed and corrupt as humans can be, that just doing some good deeds can be enough to reach perfection ? God is perfect, His standards are perfect. How can any human actually rationalize being able to obtain perfection on their own?

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So, to sum up this little rant, if there is a god, then its either very good at hiding or likes playing tricks. Now, if an omnipotent, all knowing being would just let people know that it exists, then I'd be more than happy to believe in it. But Jesus has not yet appeared in my kitchen.

Would you feel capable of rejecting God if you knew for a fact He and Hell exist? Would you really tell God to His face you don't accept Him? ( and while some here may claim they would, standing in front of a being as Holy and Perfect as God would make any human beside themselves and unable to talk, let alone insult God).

06-06-2004, 07:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Magus55

Hmm funny. He communicates with me. He communicates with a lot of other people.

Now, if you would please be so kind as to provide some evidence that this fellow communicating with you is in fact God. Thank you.

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Maybe your just expecting the wrong kind of communication.

I'm not experiencing any communication with any supernatural beings, so said communication can't be "wrong."

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He opened communication with Jesus and the Bible.

Now, if you would please be so kind as to provide some evidence that the author of the Bible is in fact God and that Jesus not only existed, but was in fact the son of God. Thank you.

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If you don't accept that form of communication, why would He be expected to bother with any more?

Your god is supposed to be all-powerful and benevolent, right? I don't think any more really needs to be said.

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God may be loving, but that in no ways means He will bow down to you until you get over yourself enough to accept Him.

I've been quite "over myself" since, uh... well, I was never a very conceited person to begin with, so I guess I'm past step one.

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He has lots of other people that are willing to accept Him.

Oh, and I'm one of them, I sure am. I'd just rather talk with him as opposed to his followers who, no offense, seem to be quite biased towards him.

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God's patient, but He doesn't wait forever.

So, your god isn't all-powerful?

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So in other words, no we haven't successfully invented something capable of detecting God. There goes using natural methods of finding Him.

Not at all! We have ears, don't we? We have eyes and mouths, too! It seems that the only person unwilling to start up some discourse is... God.

Magus55 · 06-06-2004, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warthur

But nobody has ever asked us to accept any of the above as our Lord and saviour, the prime guiding force in our lives.

(With the possible exception of Hitler: there's some crazy crazy neo-Nazi pseudochurches out there...)

Yet you believe they exist. Do you reject the existence of anyone that asks you to accept them as Lord ?

Queen of Swords · 06-06-2004, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Maybe your just expecting the wrong kind of communication.

No, I'm expecting the kind that works for me - the direct and rational kind.

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If you don't accept that form of communication, why would He be expected to bother with any more?

If he was willing to order his son to die for me, he should be willing to take one final step and present a better form of communication.

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God may be loving, but that in no ways means He will bow down to you

Then he shouldn't expect me to bow down to him. I have a thing about equality, see.

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until you get over yourself enough to accept Him.

until he gets over himself enough to open up better channels of communication, or at least to send better messengers.

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He has lots of other people that are willing to accept Him.

Then he should be content with them. Instead, he takes the position of a stalker towards unbelievers.

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God's patient, but He doesn't wait forever.

I thought the bible said "his mercy endureth for ever". Well, it wouldn't be the first time that the bible contradicted a fundamentalist.

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