Johnny Skeptic

Regarding "the inspired and preserved scriptures," don't you mean the writings that those in power chose to preserve based upon nothing more than idle guesses? Lots of writings by the dead Bible authors were rejected? Please tell us why they were rejected. By whose authority did Peter and Paul call some writings scripture? How could they have been certain that they were right? In typical fashion, I expect you to avoid replying to my post because you do not want to embarrass yourself. That is ok with me since some readers will interpret your evasiveness as an admission of defeat. I am pretty sure that you will refuse to debate me in a one on one moderated debate about the New Testament canon, but I thought that I would ask you anyway. How about it?

By the way, if Jesus returns to earth, how would you be able to recognize him?

Steven Avery

Sure, since you essentially ignore my answers, and then repeat the same questions in a dozen different ways again and again, in one-note fashion. Once I saw your shtick I moved on. However, I do find your posts entertaining.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Johnny Skeptic

I find your posts to be entertaining too. I am not aware that I ignore your answers (please give me some examples), but I can easily prove that you have NEVER replied to what I said to you about the following issues:

If Jesus returned to earth, how would you be able to recognize him? Since Christians cannot reasonably prove that the God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth, God's enforcing of rules of his own choosing do not have any more legitimacy than any other powerful being enforcing rules of his own choosing. Today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. Such being the case, why should anyone believe that it was any different back then? Deuteronomy 13 says that bad people can predict the future too, so it is not a question of who can predict the future, but who has good character. It is my position that God does not have good character. I would enjoy debating that issue with you in a new thread. How about it? It is also my position that there is not any credible evidence that Jesus fulfilled even one single supposed messianic prophecy.

Now then, would you like to tell a lie and claim that you have replied to all of the issues that I mentioned? I mentioned some of them in other threads. I may have overlooked a reply or two, but I am quite certain that you have never replied to at least most of the aforementioned issues in any thread. Over the past few years, I have encountered frequent evasiveness from Christians like you when they do not want to embarrass themselves. A one on one moderated debated would easily show which of us is the best debator. How about it? You can pick one topic, and I can pick one topic. I predict that you will refuse my offer.

Steven Avery

There was an early thread (when I restarted posting in December) where I shared with you some ideas about what would have been important in the canon determination, and how really no other books were ever considered seriously other than the current 27 (somebody pointed out three that had rather minimal support, Clement, Shephard and another if I remember). I emphasized that such post-facto reconstructions were not particularly relevant or accurate, since it is God who inspires and preserves the scriptures not man, and the exact circumstances could never be reproduced from our distant position today. (I'm adding a bit at the end here).

Since that time you have asked overlapping conjectural questions about how I think such and such a person might have evaluated a/b/c as canon maybe a half dozen times. And yes, I bypass those questions. Now you talk about some sort of "debate". I have no idea how a skeptic or mythicist who thinks the NT books were written (many by forgers) 50-100 years later than the books say, would "debate" the canon with one who accepts the first-person names, timings and such of all the books. It would be apples and screwdrivers.

Then you add another group of questions about eshatology, miracles, God's sovereignty, prophecy, and messianic prophecy

This type of stuff alienates me.

So.. Let's say your the best debator. Good, that and a token will get you on the subway. (oops.. wait a minute, a metrocard).

Very good prediction. I'm rarely into debates, especially on email or web forums. It's hard enough even to talk to somebody in these environments in a reasonable dialog. Debates (e.g. TWeb) seem too focused on "I'm the best debator", although occasionally they have a lot of research and factual material and analysis interspersed (example the TWeb "ending of Mark" material). The topics you want to debate don't even seem to have that redeeming social value. So you can take any "Best Debator" reward you like. I'll take your word that you are excellent.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Johnny Skeptic

Message to praxeus: In order to keep things simple, just please answer this question: Even if Jesus was the son of God, and rose from the dead, if he returned to earth, how would you be able to identify him?

Amaleq13

Stick the Bible, folks. Evolution has a forum all its own.

mata leao

maybe the ploughmen and the shopkeepers have hearts more tuned to that of Jesus.....blessed are the meek...... arrogant college profs hedonistically screwing their vulnerable undergraduates may just be too smart by half! The best and brightest of Jesus's day not only missed his message but they crucified him. nothing has changed.

Apikorus

Steven, you haven't responded to my point about the kethib/qere issue. What do you suppose it means that there are roughly 1000 to 1500 instances where the masora parva indicates that the written text should be rejected in favor of a word (or words) provided in the margin? What does this tell us about the transmission of the text itself? This seems to put the kibosh on your "inerrant Bible text" theories.

Mata leao, watch out! If you open your mind, your brain may fall out. By the way, Protestant televangelists and Cathlic priests seem to do more than their share of screwing the vulnerable.

Steven Avery

The King James Bible translators were very aware of the textual issues and the various Masorahs, which themselves show an incredible attentiveness to every detail of the text. In contrast, you simply think whole sections should be in or out or replaced or whatever. This makes no sense, and would make the Masorahs simply a superfluous game of chance and happenstance.

If there are some verses where you feel the King James Bible does not reflect God's Word accurately because of a qere reading, feel free to share away.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Steven Avery

Putting aside the charged, and somewhat course, phrase in there, a hearty amen