lpetrich

Actually, I think of it as the ultimate conclusion of the idea that believing in some religion is necessary to make people virtuous. If that is the case, then might that be true of some false religion as well as of some true one? And might one want to invent some religion for that purpose -- a religion that one knows is false? Thus, Plato's Royal Lie.

True, but that's a separate issue. But it's certainly very interesting what he objects to.

Heroes having big feasts and lamenting their fallen comrades.
Gods laughing and being lecherous.
Kronos castrating his father Ouranos.

I wonder what Plato would say about the Bible.

Theater was to be banned because male actors would have to imitate villains, women, and lower-class people. But Plato recognized the absurdity of dramas featuring only faultless male heroes of noble birth. Most of the people here are likely more familiar with movies and TV shows than "true" theater; movies and TV shows are high-tech forms of theater and Plato's comments apply there also. A more important difference is that actors were exclusively male in Plato's society, even those that played women, while they come in both sexes in present-day society, and almost always play their own sex.

I must say that I find it a pleasure to learn of explicit "royal lie" views of religion, because such views seems to me to be absolutely refreshing honesty. And it's also nice to learn that people could be atheists and otherwise freethinkers in a long-ago society without modern science.

jmem

I saw some inane TV show last week that covered exactly this topic. For the life of me I can't remember the name of the show...it's a current, popular one which makes it all the worse for how it portrayed the non-religious.

In a nutshell, the star family meets a churchy family and starts to feel all bad about themselves for not raising their children in church, and thus raising them with no morals. The churchy family is perfect while their children lie and steal because Mom and Dad lie and steal. In the end they decide to go to church even though they "don't know what they believe" because the children need guidance. I wished I had some rotten tomatoes handy. How hard is it to realize that you don't have to go to church to teach kids morals and values, you just have to not act like a jerk?!

Oh and I wholeheartedly agree with your analogy. I feel the same way about liberal christians sometimes, sure their values are similar to mine, but why (why why why) and how can they support and defend the horror that is the Bible?

Eric H

Hello COAS,

I left the Catholic Church about thirty five years ago for many of the reasons you have listed, and also other reasons. But I did return to the church about five years ago knowing that many of these problems still exist.

BUT!!!

Just to take up a couple of your points, if someone grew up with the urge to molest children they might look for an environment that would be conducive to their desires, so the priesthood, children’s homes, and schools would be a prime occupation for people who have those tendencies. In the UK it is only recently that people coming into these professions have to be vetted and registered.

Do you stop sending your children to schools and clubs because paedophiles are known to have frequented these places?

I am more in agreement with you on the point of money and corruption, I don’t think our present Pope is corrupt; but I would love to see the Pope move out of the Vatican and move to where he could be more effective like Palestine or the Sudan. I would love to see him live in the same kind of lifestyle that Christ lived in.

As to your friends children, they will grow up to be teenagers, and they will at some point start to think for themselves, if they find meaning in the church they will stay with it. If on the other hand they find false teaching they will move away from the church.

At the tender age of 55 I Believe in God more than I believe in the Catholic Church, But I believe in God through the teachings of the church, despite all the human failings within the church

Peace

Eric

jmem

Schools and clubs do not have a tendency to cover up these things, or to allow molesters to remain in contact with children. If I knew that a particular organization, club, or school turned a blind eye to pedophiles, yes I would absolutely stop sending my child there, and I'd withdraw any support I was giving. You are not answering the question of the direct responsibility and involvement of the church in many of the cases of molestation by priests.

Not to mention that I question whether many of these priests start out as pedophiles merely looking for a way to get to children. Seems more likely that the unnatural position of lifelong celibacy that the church forces on them, plus the company of, and private time with boys, is a disaster waiting to happen.

christ-on-a-stick

Hi Eric

In response to your question, I think jmem put it well -

mrmoderate

While I detest the Roman Catholic Church I cannot in good consience claim any and all Catholics to be guilty by association.

By this rationale all taxpayers are guilty of supporting the invasion of Iraq and homosexual marriages (I deliberately used an example from opposing political thought.)

Union members would be responsible for union violence and destruction of property.

Every homosexual would be responsible for the deliberate spreading of the AIDS virus.

Everyone opposed to abortion would be responsible for the bombing of clinics.

and so on......it just don't wash.

jmem

Taxpaying is not voluntary. But if you want to argue that all US citizens share responsibility for the government we elect and the decisions they make, I can accept that as valid.

They're not? If union members would refuse to be part of unions that engage in this type of behavior, would it continue?

This just does not follow, unless all homosexuals join and support some kind of secret organization that promotes the deliberate spreading of AIDS.

Again, not unless they join and support an organization that promotes the bombing of clinics.

Eric H

I feel a deep sadness and regret when I hear of people being subjected to abuse against their will; and I do not condone it in any way. It seems even worse when the abuser is a person in authority who should be trusted.

I know that it happens within the church, but should I stop being a Catholic and stop going to church because of that.

Since I returned to the Catholic Church, I feel that there is a conscious effort to bring this abuse out into the open. If there has been a case of a priest and child abuse in the news, our priest has talked about it at mass and it is also mentioned in the newsletters that come from the bishop.

We will probably never know the extent of the abuse that has happened in the past, but I feel that there is now the will to try and put a stop to it.

I can only think that when these things have been covered up in the past, it was probably because the person doing the covering up was either involved or maybe they were trying to prevent the church being damaged.

As humans we seem to blunder through life, and we could certainly do things better.

Peace

Eric

the_cave

I don't quite understand this concept of "support[ing] and defend[ing]...the Bible". The Bible is a collection of texts--no matter what happens to religion, the Bible will always exist. It can't be supported or defended. It's a historical fact, or object. Certain uses of the Bible can be supported or defended, I suppose, sure.

the_cave

Great--so, we're all responsible for prison abuse in Iraq? (Not to mention at home...) My god, man, how can you justify living in this country! I'm shocked you don't move to Canada...

You see my point...America is a liveable place simply because we don't support these things...we can be held responsible for them while at the same time working to remove them. (But another question: can we be held responsible for things we didn't in fact approve of? Or for things that in fact nobody approved of?)

If the Catholic Church basically said "Hey, who cares?" in response to abuse by priests, sure, then every Catholic would be supporting an immoral organization. But clearly many Catholics and their leaders are working to compensate the victims and prevent it from happening it again (hey, how about this: if you're not donating money to the Church, can I say that you don't approve of compensating victims of abuse?)