Freethought & Rationalism Archive

LogicandReason · 01-20-2009, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharrock

I've been reading Temple Theology by Margaret Barker and she has this to say...

The seventy weeks of years, 490 years, were ten Jubilees, and the alternative way of reckoning this
period was as ten Jubilees. Jewish tradition remembered that the 490 years ended in 68CE; calculation
from the second temple Jubilee sequence beginning in 424BCE gives 66CE. A two year discrepancy
is hardly significant in the light of what this implies, namely that the tenth Jubilee began in 17/19 CE.
In other words, tenth Jubilee fervour and expectations were the context for the ministry of Jesus.

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers...TheJubilee.pdf

Great stuff thanks...

Doug Shaver · 01-20-2009, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It is an axiom that there are no coincidences in literature (a saying attributed to Freud.)

Excuse me? Freud said so, therefore it is so?

Doug Shaver · 01-20-2009, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Judas the Galilean was named after someone.

How do you know that? Did his parents tell you?

JoeWallack · 01-20-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Today we differentiate between the names Judas, Judah and Jude - the original Greek that the NT was written in makes no distinction between these names which (Yehuda) in Hebrew are synonymous and translate as Celebrated or Praised. Judah is a tribe of Israel, the root word of Judea, was the Kingdom ruled by David's linage after Israel split into two kingdoms following Solomon's death - Judas or Judah are names that represent Jews.

Is it mere coincidence that the bad guy in the NT Gospels is also named Judas? Let's examine this choice in names and see if the evangelist we call 'Mark' choose that name (or simply parroted a name from an oral tradition) when in 14:10 he writes of a trusted disciple going to the Jewish priests and agreeing to betray Jesus.

These was another very famous person of the same name who had recently been a national hero was named Judas, Judas Maccabeus (Judah Maccabee). He was a hero to the religious Jews as he and his brothers fought against the Seleucids (Antiochus) and formed the Hasmonean dynasty that lasted from the middle of the 2nd century BCE until Pompey showed up and Rome installed Herod the Great. I point out that he was a hero to the religious Jews...in the Diaspora, in places like Alexandria, there were plenty of Hellenistic Jews who wished for Jews to assimilate into Greek culture, Judah Maccabee was not a hero to such Jews. Josephus tells us in The Antiquities of the Jews that such Jews existed in Jerusalem as well. In Book 12, chapter 5 we learn that disputes over the High Priesthood led a Hellenistic group (supporting Menelaus) to go to the Seleucid ruler, Antiochus, and ask him to overthrow the religious Jews who had installed the High Priest Jesus (familiar name?).

JW:
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_3:19

Quote:

and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. And he cometh into a house.

My own guess is that "Iscariot" is intended to connect to "Christ" phonetically (not the first to suggest this). The ironic contrast is:

Jesus Christ - Saves the strangers (Gentiles)

Judas Iscariot - Hands over the friend (Jews)

Support:

1) "Mark" in general has a style of using names for emphasis:

Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Presentation Of Names As Evidence Of Fiction

A good parallel to the Christ/Iscariot comparison is the BarTimaeus and BarAbbas comparison. "Timaeus" was a famous Greek writing by Plato so the symbolic meaning may have been "son of the Greeks" while Bar Abbas is Aramaic for "son of the father" which may have been symbolic for son of the Jews.

2) As noted above, the two characters, Christ and Iscariot are polar opposites in the Saves category.

3) The textual evidence:

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?source=...ef=Mark+3%3A19

Ἰσκαριώθ

vs.

Ἰσκαριώτην

shows the original has been changed which means the original may have been even closer to "Christ" (although the textual evidence indicates "Iscariot" is likely original).

Note that in the original version ("Mark") no motivation is attributed to Judas. The reason "Mark" gives is that it was "written":

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_14:21

Quote:

For the Son of man goeth, even as it is written of him: but woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had not been born.

There is no claim of fulfilling prophecy, just that it was written. I believe this refers to Paul writing that Jesus was handed over:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php...inthians_11:23

Quote:

For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;

Note that Paul's offending word here "παρεδίδετο" (handed over) is the same root word as "Mark's" "παραδίδοται". More evidence for:

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

Maybe Ben would like to argue that "Mark's" Judas deliberately handed Jesus over because he knew what Paul wrote.

Joseph

EDITOR, n.
A person who combines the judicial functions of Minos, Rhadamanthus and Aeacus, but is placable with an obolus; a severely virtuous censor, but so charitable withal that he tolerates the virtues of others and the vices of himself; who flings about him the splintering lightning and sturdy thunders of admonition till he resembles a bunch of firecrackers petulantly uttering his mind at the tail of a dog; then straightway murmurs a mild, melodious lay, soft as the cooing of a donkey intoning its prayer to the evening star. Master of mysteries and lord of law, high-pinnacled upon the throne of thought, his face suffused with the dim splendors of the Transfiguration, his legs intertwisted and his tongue a-cheek, the editor spills his will along the paper and cuts it off in lengths to suit. And at intervals from behind the veil of the temple is heard the voice of the foreman demanding three inches of wit and six lines of religious meditation, or bidding him turn off the wisdom and whack up some pathos.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

premjan · 01-20-2009, 12:53 PM

Odd "Muhammad" also has the same meaning as "Judas".

LogicandReason · 01-20-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Odd "Muhammad" also has the same meaning as "Judas".

Where do you find that?

premjan · 01-20-2009, 01:37 PM

"praised" vs. "praiseworthy" - about the same.

LogicandReason · 01-20-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

"praised" vs. "praiseworthy" - about the same.

Can you give me a reference...that is an interesting fact assuming translations

premjan · 01-20-2009, 01:42 PM

The OP for Judas, and google for Muhammad it is easily found.

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01-20-2009, 12:53 PM	#35
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Odd "Muhammad" also has the same meaning as "Judas".

01-20-2009, 01:37 PM	#37
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	"praised" vs. "praiseworthy" - about the same.

01-20-2009, 01:42 PM	#39
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	The OP for Judas, and google for Muhammad it is easily found.

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