Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pharoah · 01-31-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

I've often heard it said that the Jews were expecting a human Messiah, but how do you reconcile the above verses with that expectation?

Malachi151 · 01-31-2007, 10:26 AM

I don't think that there was any unified Jewish expectation.

dzim77 · 01-31-2007, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

I've often heard it said that the Jews were expecting a human Messiah, but how do you reconcile the above verses with that expectation?

good call

dog-on · 01-31-2007, 02:34 PM

Isn't this referring to Hezekiah?

Ben C Smith · 01-31-2007, 04:13 PM

Is the child in Isaiah 9.6-7 the same as the child Immanuel in Isaiah 7.14-16; 8.8?

Ben.

Doug Shaver · 02-01-2007, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

I've often heard it said that the Jews were expecting a human Messiah

The last time a fundamentalist told me what kind of messiah the Jews were expecting, I asked him to cite a first-century Jewish source. He never replied.

pharoah · 02-01-2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzim77

good call

I should point out that I asked the question purely out of curiosity, not because I think it lends any support to the claims of Christianity. There's absolutely no basis from reading the OT to even believe that YHWH exists, let alone that he would send a human and/or god-like messiah to the Jews.

pharoah · 02-01-2007, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

The last time a fundamentalist told me what kind of messiah the Jews were expecting, I asked him to cite a first-century Jewish source. He never replied.

Aren't Paul's letters and the gospels evidence that some Jews were expecting a god-like Messiah?

dzim77 · 02-01-2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

I should point out that I asked the question purely out of curiosity, not because I think it lends any support to the claims of Christianity. There's absolutely no basis from reading the OT to even believe that YHWH exists, let alone that he would send a human and/or god-like messiah to the Jews.

I wasn't meaning to make any presumptions about your views, just noting that it was a good observation on your part.

pharoah · 02-01-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Isn't this referring to Hezekiah?

It could be, but then how do you explain him being referred to as "the Mighty God"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Is the child in Isaiah 9.6-7 the same as the child Immanuel in Isaiah 7.14-16; 8.8?

Ben.

Has anyone ever put up a good argument making that connection?

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01-31-2007, 10:26 AM	#2
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I don't think that there was any unified Jewish expectation.

01-31-2007, 02:34 PM	#4
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Isn't this referring to Hezekiah?

01-31-2007, 04:13 PM	#5
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Is the child in Isaiah 9.6-7 the same as the child Immanuel in Isaiah 7.14-16; 8.8? Ben.

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