Johnny Skeptic

That's it? Wouldn't love compel a loving God to do much more than that? If Jesus returned to earth to make some more appearances today, wouldn't some people become Christians who were not previously convinced? Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and other historical characters attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less evidence than the miracles that are attributed to Jesus.

Since God has allowed hundreds of millions of people to die without having heard the Gospel message, why are you interested in doing what God refuses to do himself? Foot, horseback, boat, etc. have never been efficient means of spreading any message.

What makes God's judgments right?

Anat

gregor, I think a traditional belief about the exodus existed before Babylonian exile, since it is mentioned in the earlier prophets starting from Amos. Though the tradition may have become more fleshed out during exile. IMO the tradition was based on stories about the Hyksos on the one hand and their memories from the events that surrounded the Iron I settlement in the hill country and away from the Egyptian-influenced cities. There may have been a mini-exodus or a micro-exodus that fed into the stories, but it did not involve a significant part of the early iron age population.

Whatever was behind the stories, I don't think they were written down before the late eighth century in any form. At such a distance from the events the accounts are worthless as history, but they tell us how the various people who wrote them down at different stages viewed themselves, their origins, their relationship with their god and their place in history.

Anat

Haran, what information about customs or life in Egypt do you think is specific to the time of the exodus and couldn't have come from later times?

Also, regarding the numbers being symbolic - I can accept that for the remark in Exodus about 600,000 men (12 tribes, 50K from each tribe), but not for the detailed censi in Numbers. I think the author of Numbers intended his audience to take the numbers literally.

yalla

Didn't they allegedly spend most of that 40 years at one place, Kardesh whatever?

Haran

God.

God sets the standards, not us. What you perceive to be "right" may not be so. If you try to apply your standards to God, you are simply creating your own God and putting him a confining box of your own standards.

Johnny Skeptic

So are you saying that might makes right?

Not really. Self-interest is a human standard, and you have provably and inconsistently applied your standards of self-interest to create a God who will give you a comfortable eternal life and not send you to hell. Many Christians claim that there is a lot of evidence other than faith that reasonably proves that the Bible should be trusted, but they would surely reject THE VERY SAME EVIDENCE if the evidence said that everyone would go to hell. In other words, the number of eyewitnesses, the number of gospels, or the number of copies of ancient manuscripts would not matter at all, in fact, even if the evidence was twice as good as the evidence that is found in the Bible.

Regardless of the evidence, self-interest ALWAYS presumes that whenever a person is confronted by evidence that claims that he will go to hell, it is best to argue against the evidence, or if a person is uncertain to hope that the evidence was wrong. There would be no possible advantage in doing otherwise.

If a powerful being came from outer space, claimed be a God other than the God of the Bible, demonstrated FIRSTHAND in front of everyone in the world, not hearsay evidence like in the Bible, that he could convert energy into matter and destroy a large building in one second, said that he was going to destroy the earth in six months, and left the earth, most Christians would hope that the supposed God would somehow not be able to carry out his threat. On the other hand, if a being from outer space came to earth, claimed that he was Jesus, and demonstrated THE EXACT SAME POWERS, Christians would hope, in fact assume, that the being was actually Jesus.

Hypothetical arguments are often excellent means of revealing inconsistent arguments. Christians frequently use them whenever they believe that it suits their purposes. A good example is C. S. Lewis’ ‘Lord, Liar, or Lunatic.’ Evidence that cannot be credibly consistently applied is not evidence at all.

I noticed that you did not reply to all of my previous post. Why was that? Here are the parts of my previous post that you did not reply to.

Anat

Kadesh Barnea. Which means we should expect to find at least their latreens, garbage heaps, broken pottery and other discarded materials.

aa5874

Well, I would like you to explain how magicians, without the help of God, created swarms of frogs to cover the land of Egypt and how these same magicians turned all the rivers, ponds and vessels of water to blood.

I have not been able to get any information about these magicians from any-one who believes in God. Can you help me?

TomboyMom

To come at it from another angle, wouldn't Egyptian records say something about Hebrew slaves and their escape? My understanding is that:

"The many Egyptian documents known to us do not make any reference to the sojourn of the Children of Israel in Egypt or the events of the Exodus." Ze'ev Herzog, professor at Tel Aviv University

Sven

I don't want to get off-topic, but why do you believe in the Christian god and not in others?

Read your bible.
Genesis 3,22: And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.