bacht

By the end of the 2nd C it was "obvious" to Christians that Jesus had been an historical person, but before that time it's not clear how the whole movement got started. Why do the epistles of John, Peter and Jude not mention anything about Jesus' life? The epistle to the Hebrews has all the action taking place in heaven, as does the Revelation of John. Paul's few references are ambiguous. Only the gospels and Acts attempt a biographical approach, and they may have been written as much as a century or more after Pilate's era.

PhilosopherJay

Hi bacht,

I agree with you. This is the important core issue for understanding the actual Non-Eusebean development of Christianity. Additionally, besides the epistles and Revelation, the Didache and Epistle of Barnabas, widely accepted as part of the NT in the Third century and possibly earlier, also give no idea that there was an Earthly Jesus.

We know that there was a concept of a Messiah/Christ before the alleged advent of the Earthly Jesus. The question is, "Were there writings about a heavenly Christ Jesus before the writings about the Earthly Jesus?"

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

bacht

What's your guess Jay? I would vote yes, there were writings about a heavenly Christ before writings about an earthly Jesus. But the problem of dating the early literature makes it tricky. If it can be established that some of the epistles or Barnabbas or Didache pre-dated the gospels then it makes it easier to argue for a non-physical Christ appearing first [we're not talking about a Jewish-type messiah, the DSS show that apocalyptic speculation was common enough]

show_no_mercy

Also, Philo's Logos was seen as a heavenly "christ" as well. More specifically, a heavenly high preist (which is a type of "christ") that was the blueprint for humanity and the mediator and cleanser of sins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo%2..._God#The_Logos

lpetrich

Yes, the Gospels' account of Jesus Christ's last days seems lurid enough to have interested the likes of Philo and Josephus. But it didn't.

There are other incongruities, like the release of Barabbas. That's meant to be a human version of the scapegoat ritual in Leviticus, where one goat is sacrificed and one goat is released into the wilderness. That explains why nobody else knows about the supposed custom of releasing some inmate.

Another one is the crowd apparently accepting guilt for JC's execution. That is TOTALLY out in character with better-documented lynch mobs. Here in the US, lynchers not only showed little evidence of second thoughts, they sometimes took pictures of their handiwork. Certain politicians even defended them by blocking efforts to pass anti-lynching laws.


I enjoy watching theologians turn into materialists when it comes to memes. At least the theologians' common caricature of materialists as rejecting the existence of mind and mental stuff.

But did he praise them for learning about anything else?
Like...
Where did Paul decree that? And Jesus Christ did not exactly practice what he preached about that.
There were oodles of them made in the Middle Ages. Early Protestants like John Calvin had a field day with them.
Reproductive freedom includes birth control and abortion, which the Catholic Church continues to oppose.
So any sex that produces overpopulation is "fornication"? Even if it is marital sex? Would artificial insemination also qualify as "fornication" if it produces overpopulation?

mountainman

The Gospel accounts of Jesus Q Christ seem to have interested the
author and/or authors of the following manuscripts who without exception
appear to have cast Jesus into impossibly outrageous Hellenistic romance
narratives which made far better popular reading than the canonical counterparts ....

So we can rest assured that at least one, probably a number of Hellenistic
academic greek writing authors cast Jesus into the realm of pure fiction.
Pure unudulteraded Hellenistic romantic fiction.

I wonder why the author(s) did this terrible thing to the Historical Jesus?
More critically I wonder when these were texts were authored.
These texts demonstrate proof that at this epoch when the texts
were authored, that at least in the mind of the author(s), the figure
of Jesus was neither historical or spiritual - but rather plainly fictitious.

List of Manuscripts featuring a Jesus Fictitive Christ.

The Act of Peter
The Acts and Martyrdom of Andrew
The Acts and Martyrdom of Matthew
The Acts of Andrew and John (*H)
The Acts of Andrew and Matthew (*H)
The Acts of Barnabas
The Acts of Bartholomew
The Acts of John the Theologian
The Acts of Luke
The Acts of Mark
The Acts of Matthew
The Acts of Paul and Thecla
The Acts of Peter and Andrew
The Acts of Peter and Paul
The Acts of Philip
The Acts of Pilate
The Acts of Simon and Jude
The Acts of Thaddaeus
The Acts of Timothy
The Acts of Titus
The Death of Pilate
The History of John
The History of Joseph the Carpenter
The Acts of Andrew (*H)
The Acts of John (*H)
The Acts of Paul (*R)
The Acts of Peter
The Acts of Thomas
The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles


The Gospel of Bartholomew
The Gospel of Gamaliel
The Gospel of James (Infancy)
The Gospel of Judas
The Gospel of Mary [Magdalene]
The Gospel of Nicodemus
The Gospel of Peter
The Gospel of Philip
The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary
The Gospel of the Twelve Apostles
The Gospel of Thomas

Toto

Pete - Hellenistic writers also wrote fiction about Alexander the Great.

Writing fiction is a basic human instinct.

mountainman

You can bet you bottom dollar that the writing of popular fiction
about Alexander the Great was authored after his rise to a supreme
prominence in the Empires of the epochs BCE. Not when he was unknown.

You can bet you bottom dollar that the writing of popular fiction
about Jesus Fictive Christ was authored after his rise to a supreme
prominence in the Empires of the epoch around 325 CE.

Before Nicaea Jesus Christ was a very green inconspicuous unknown.
The carbon dating supports this statement of 4th century origins.
Temples we have to Asclepius coming out of our ears.
But temples or shrines or churches or church-houses
dedicated to the Jesus Christ God are not to be found,
except for brief mentions in the two Historias - Ecclesiastica
and Augusta - both of which are known to have been
authored also during the fourth century.


These new testament apocryphal manuscripts are evidence
of the mention of Jesus in the epoch of "early Christian origins".
Philo and Josephus and Galen and Philostratus
may not have mentioned Jesus. But some heretic did.
Whoever this heretic was, he cast Jesus as a fiction
in a series of books entitled "The Travels of the Apostles".
The name of Leucius Charinus appears in the 4th century.
Who was this author Leucius?
The names "Leucius" and "Karinus" suddenly appear
in the fourth century "Acts of Pilate".
What might all this imply?

aa5874

But, you forgot to mention Matthew 1.18-20 and Luke1.35.

You simply cannot use the the NT to prove that Jesus was human. In the NT, Jesus was a Holy Ghost or the by-product of an Holy Spirit of God.


Mt 1:18 - Mt 1:20 - Lu 1:35 - Jesus was a Holy Ghost that looked human. Marcion was right. Jesus was a phantom.

Toto

I think a lot of people here would take you on.

Besides, popular fiction has been written about obscure nobodies.

NO IT DOESN'T. Carbon dating a copy of a text does not date its origin.


Nothing about Christian origins.