Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 03-08-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfniii

then why do skeptics insist that they are false?

As you seem to implicitly agree by suggesting a non-literal interpretation, "skeptics" are observing that the most apparent meaning of the prophecy has not been fulfilled.

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if there is an interpretation that shows it came true, wouldn't that be the whole point of the prophecy in the first place?

Where do you believe the author suggests that his words should be interpreted other than in a literal sense?

As far as I can see, there is no indication in the text to suggest that the author intended his words to be creatively interpreted so that they might appear to be a fulfilled prophecy. To all appearances, the author was predicting exactly what he believed would happen and intended it to be interpreted literally.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-08-2005, 04:57 PM

Speaking of Biblical errors, I've just posted the errors section ib my Shredding the Gospels thread. I'd be obliged, bfnii, if you could take a look at it and make a response.

Jack the Bodiless · 03-09-2005, 02:22 AM

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bfniii has argued that the Bible's claims should be taken at face value

please quote where you get this from. otherwise, it is wrong of you to misrepresent my position.

This was apparently your position throughout the "Lack of Evidence" thread.

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1. if an author who supposedly doesn’t know the biblical author, corroborates a biblical claim, skeptics can claim Christian copyists appended the collusion because it would be out of character for such a person to do so. This is the skeptical position in regards to the TF. This is clearly a case of special pleading.

No, the TF is assumed to have been interfered with by Christians for a very specific reason that has already been explained to you.

I will not address the rest of your list, as it is off-topic and has been addressed elsewhere.

Quote:

(which bfniii refused to study):

Please provide the quote where I refused to study it.

Here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfniii

There are many people who read the bible who do believe the prophecies came true and I could introduce them to you so it is incorrect to say that anyone who reads the bible thinks they are false.

Forgive me for not visiting the website. There are many websites that claim just the opposite of what that one claims. We would be reduced to name dropping. You just tell me which ones went unfulfilled and we’ll discuss it.

Back to Tyre:

Quote:

i disagree with your interpretation. i find "tyre" to refer more to it's political establishment than a city proper. again, your literal/figurative confusion causes improper interpretation.

This was intended to be fulfilled literally, by Nebuchadnezzar. This is obvious. Ezekiel describes the siege of Tyre, in considerable detail (battering engines, breaking down of fortifications etc) - except that Nebuchadnezzar lost, and he was supposed to win.

He then has God offering Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as compensation for the failure at Tyre (though history records that Nebuchadnezzar didn't take Egypt either).

There is no sense in which the prophecy "came true", and even Ezekiel knew that it had failed.

...But I note that you're still making bogus accusations of "misinterpretation":

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfniii

Most prophecies are figurative...

...again, your literal/figurative confusion causes improper interpretation.

Would you care to support your assertion that your interpretation is the "proper" one?

And how would this literal/figurative fudge work with the census contradictions? In what sense are God and Satan figuratively identical? How about David and Joab? Was Joab figuratively both for and against the census? And so on...

Jack the Bodiless · 03-10-2005, 04:13 AM

...And how would this literal/figurative fudge work on doctrinal contradictions?

For example: are we punished for the sins of others?

The Bible says NO:

Quote:

Dt.24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Jer.31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity."

Ezek.18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

The Bible says YES:

Quote:

Gen.9:21-25 "And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father .... And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan [Ham's son]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Ex.20:5 , Dt.5:9 "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Ex.34:7 "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Num.14:18 "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Dt.23:2 "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

Dt.28:18 "Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body."

2 Sam.12:14 "The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."

2 Sam.21:6-9 Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD .... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD."

1 Kg.2:33 "Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever."

1 Kg.11:11-12 "Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son."

1 Kg.21:29 "Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house."

2 Kg.5:27 "The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever."

Is.14:21 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

Jer.16:10-11 "Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? ... Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord."

Jer.29:32 "Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed."

Jer.32:18 "Thou ... recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them."

Furthermore, this is a faultline running right through Christian teaching, from the punishment of all humanity for the sin of Adam and Eve, right through to the punishment of Jesus for the sins of everyone else, with plenty of similar injustices in between (e.g. the genocide of the Amalekites as payback for what their ancestors did four centuries before): all in the name of a deity described by Christians as "perfectly just". Inherent in the concept of "justice" is that the punishment MUST be applied to the PERPETRATOR of a crime: anything else is not justice.

Anat · 03-10-2005, 07:15 AM

Interestingly the Biblical God's sense of justice contradicts ours, but is more in line with the sense of justice expressed in (for example) Hamurabi's laws - where if A inflicts harm on, say, B's child then A's child should be punished, etc. I suppose it has to do with the way those ancient societies viewed people not as individuals but as elements of families and clans.

Mordy · 03-10-2005, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Interestingly the Biblical God's sense of justice contradicts ours, but is more in line with the sense of justice expressed in (for example) Hamurabi's laws - where if A inflicts harm on, say, B's child then A's child should be punished, etc. I suppose it has to do with the way those ancient societies viewed people not as individuals but as elements of families and clans.

Not to say that you are not right, but many nations currently existing today are in exactly the same position as regards to the biblical gods concept of justice. America just to name one. History is rife with examples of the concept of 'justice' the biblical god displays.

Calzaer · 03-10-2005, 08:06 AM

Calzaer's Holy-Ghost-Inspired Prophecy: Within the next 3 years, the white house will be burned to the ground.

3 years from now, no matter what the political state of the country, I can come up with a figurative interpretation of the above sentence to make it true.

Yay, I'm a prophet of God! My prophecies come true! We can all be prophets!

Calzaer · 03-10-2005, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordy

Not to say that you are not right, but many nations currently existing today are in exactly the same position as regards to the biblical gods concept of justice. America just to name one. History is rife with examples of the concept of 'justice' the biblical god displays.

Um.. so if I beat up your kid, an American judge could order my kid beaten up?

What state is this law effective in?

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-10-2005, 01:48 PM

Please confine this thread to the stated topic of discussion. We have a separate forum for political discussions. Thank you

DtC, Moderator, BCH

Mordy · 03-10-2005, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calzaer

Um.. so if I beat up your kid, an American judge could order my kid beaten up?

What state is this law effective in?

Referring to the illegal war in Iraq which violated international law (and moderator please dont DELETE my post since I was showing him WHY my point was valid).

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03-08-2005, 04:57 PM	#12
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Speaking of Biblical errors, I've just posted the errors section ib my Shredding the Gospels thread. I'd be obliged, bfnii, if you could take a look at it and make a response.

03-10-2005, 07:15 AM	#15
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Interestingly the Biblical God's sense of justice contradicts ours, but is more in line with the sense of justice expressed in (for example) Hamurabi's laws - where if A inflicts harm on, say, B's child then A's child should be punished, etc. I suppose it has to do with the way those ancient societies viewed people not as individuals but as elements of families and clans.

03-10-2005, 08:06 AM	#17
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Calzaer's Holy-Ghost-Inspired Prophecy: Within the next 3 years, the white house will be burned to the ground. 3 years from now, no matter what the political state of the country, I can come up with a figurative interpretation of the above sentence to make it true. Yay, I'm a prophet of God! My prophecies come true! We can all be prophets!

03-10-2005, 01:48 PM	#19
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Please confine this thread to the stated topic of discussion. We have a separate forum for political discussions. Thank you DtC, Moderator, BCH

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