Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Newfie · 09-18-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Actually, Paul's own chronology in Galatians suggests that his conversion took place within only a few years of Jesus' supposed crucifixion (ca 30 C.E.) He tells us he spent time in Syria, possibly absorbing the basic message of Christ from them, rather than inventing much of it himself. Yes, he had competitors, but his focus was on the Gentiles, a much bigger and more challenging "mission field" than the Jewish community.

Wouldn't it have been more challenging to sell Jesus as the Son of God to the Jews? I mean, the gentiles had tons of experience with accepting humans becoming divine, whereas the Jews saw this as utter blasphemy.

Isn't it also likely that Saul, merciless persecutor of the early Jesus cult interprets a seizure that he had as some kind of message from God, and since God never strikes anyone down because He wants to give them a high five for doing a bang up job, Saul comes to believe that he must be doing the Christians all wrong. He then seeks out to learn more about who this Jesus actually was, rejecting all notions that imply that he was only a man (which goes against his seizure experience) and synthesises the Cosmic Christ theology.

Quote:

I don't know that Revelation is datable after the gospels. It's often placed in the 90s, with Mark's gospel possibly shortly before or after. This apocalypse isn't very different in tone from previous Jewish apocalypses, with the exception of the Christ figure added.

Hey, you're right. Making slip ups like that serves me right for trying to post comments while grading seventh grade English assignments. :Cheeky::Cheeky::Cheeky:

On that note, TTFN.

andrewcriddle · 09-18-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Once later Christians constructed an earthly biography for the Savior, they retrojected him back to the time of Pilate, based on the book of Daniel. But there is no evidence that he was ever there.

Hi Toto

Could you explain how the book of Daniel provided a basis for locating Christ in the time of Pilate ?

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 09-18-2008, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

...I think that scholarship would have picked up on their having originated at the time of the canonization process, hundreds of years later than they are usually seen as having been written. ....

What scholarship would that be?

Evolution of the Pauline Canon.

Quote:

The canon of Holy Scripture is like the Holy Place in the Jerusalem Temple: it is shielded from prying mortal eyes by a veil of sanctity. One is curious to peer inside, yet at the same time one fears being disappointed should one dare steal a glimpse, like the profane usurper Titus who was startled to find an empty chamber. Or, worse yet, will one find a stammering man behind the curtain, at the controls in a hidden speclal effects booth, as in The Wizard of Oz?

If the biblical canon is the Holy Place, perhaps we may liken the Pauline Corpus to the Holy of Holies. For even among those for whom the outer veil has long ago been rent, this inner zone of canonicity retains its numinous inviolability. For Christian scholars, whether apologists or supposed critics, the Pauline Epistles are like the metaphysical Presence of traditional ontotheology. We are reluctant to have someone come along and play the Derridean trick of showing us where the seams and junctures are.

bacht · 09-18-2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

Wouldn't it have been more challenging to sell Jesus as the Son of God to the Jews? I mean, the gentiles had tons of experience with accepting humans becoming divine, whereas the Jews saw this as utter blasphemy.

Isn't it also likely that Saul, merciless persecutor of the early Jesus cult interprets a seizure that he had as some kind of message from God, and since God never strikes anyone down because He wants to give them a high five for doing a bang up job, Saul comes to believe that he must be doing the Christians all wrong. He then seeks out to learn more about who this Jesus actually was, rejecting all notions that imply that he was only a man (which goes against his seizure experience) and synthesises the Cosmic Christ theology.

Well, the implication in the epistles is that the Christ movement started among Jews, as a development of Jewish theology, based on re-interpretation of the Jewish scriptures. Paul's contribution was to widen this message to gentiles, though others may have been doing so also (only his writings survived, if there were any others they were lost or suppressed).

Do I think Paul was mentally stable? Tough call; he seems lucid enough in the epistles, but the fact that he kept getting in trouble with authorities suggests a volatile temperament. Apocalypticists by nature are not "mainstream" personalities.

spamandham · 09-18-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

Paul, actually, may have been the deciding factor. He is often credited as being the true founder of Christianity.

...assuming he (Paul) was historical of course.

spamandham · 09-18-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Once later Christians constructed an earthly biography for the Savior, they retrojected him back to the time of Pilate, based on the book of Daniel. But there is no evidence that he was ever there.

Hi Toto

Could you explain how the book of Daniel provided a basis for locating Christ in the time of Pilate ?

Andrew Criddle

Many modern Christians argue that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24+ actually refer to 70 7-year periods, or 490 years. The prophecy was (by this argument) that the messiah would show up in his final glory 490 years after a decree was issued to restore the temple. This decree was given 458 BCE by King Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:11), placing the messiah right at the time of Pilate.

What I'm unaware of, is whether or not Jews of 2000 years ago interpreted these passages the same way, or if this 'prophecy' was discovered after teh fact. Does anyone have insight into that?

aa5874 · 09-18-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Hi Toto

Could you explain how the book of Daniel provided a basis for locating Christ in the time of Pilate ?

Andrew Criddle

Many modern Christians argue that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24+ actually refer to 70 7-year periods, or 490 years. The prophecy was (by this argument) that the messiah would show up in his final glory 490 years after a decree was issued to restore the temple. This decree was given 458 BCE by King Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:11), placing the messiah right at the time of Pilate.

What I'm unaware of, is whether or not Jews of 2000 years ago interpreted these passages the same way, or if this 'prophecy' was discovered after teh fact. Does anyone have insight into that?

Based on Josephus in "Wars of the Jews" and "Antiquities of the Jews", Suetonius in "The Life of Vespasian", and Tacitus in "Histories", it would appear the Jews thought the Messiah would have come at around 70CE, and the belief that the Messiah was expected at that time may have been the cause of the War according to Josephus.

andrewcriddle · 09-19-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Many modern Christians argue that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24+ actually refer to 70 7-year periods, or 490 years. The prophecy was (by this argument) that the messiah would show up in his final glory 490 years after a decree was issued to restore the temple. This decree was given 458 BCE by King Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:11), placing the messiah right at the time of Pilate.

What I'm unaware of, is whether or not Jews of 2000 years ago interpreted these passages the same way, or if this 'prophecy' was discovered after teh fact. Does anyone have insight into that?

This precise detailed argument seems to first occur in Julius Africanus. Earlier attempts, eg by Hippolytus, to use the 70 weeks as a prophecy of Christ are less well worked out.

Andrew Criddle

bacht · 09-19-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Hi Toto

Could you explain how the book of Daniel provided a basis for locating Christ in the time of Pilate ?

Andrew Criddle

Many modern Christians argue that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24+ actually refer to 70 7-year periods, or 490 years. The prophecy was (by this argument) that the messiah would show up in his final glory 490 years after a decree was issued to restore the temple. This decree was given 458 BCE by King Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:11), placing the messiah right at the time of Pilate.

What I'm unaware of, is whether or not Jews of 2000 years ago interpreted these passages the same way, or if this 'prophecy' was discovered after teh fact. Does anyone have insight into that?

Why wouldn't the start of the 2nd temple under Darius (519-14 BCE) be used as the date for calculation? That would put the messiah around 29 BCE. The decree of Cyrus (538 BCE?) would give us 48 BCE.

spamandham · 09-19-2008, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Why wouldn't the start of the 2nd temple under Darius (519-14 BCE) be used as the date for calculation? That would put the messiah around 29 BCE. The decree of Cyrus (538 BCE?) would give us 48 BCE.

Sure, that's possible too. I was just wondering if the argument many evangelicals use today was also in use prior to Pilate. From Andrew's comment above, it doesn't seem like that was the case.

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