fromdownunder

Given that this thread is already derailed, I will add my 2 cents worth. The offer as framed is as bad as Hovind's $1 million offer to "prove" evolution.

The criteria can never be met. They might as well have offered a million, because it is one of the most stupid, dare I say, pathetic attempts to bait people I have ever seen.

Norm

DrDale

Is this test applied to all historical figures or just religious ones? Is the same technique applied to Mohammad, Buddha and Krishna or just Christian figures such as Jesus.

Also, is one supposed to seperate the question of ones existence with the deeds said figure was quoted as accomplishing, or is one's existence solely dependent on the evidence of ones accomplsihments? For instance, President Reagan was said by some commentators to have been responsible for the downfall of the USSR, whilst other commentators disagree. Would future historians be required to prove that Reagan was responsible for the downfall of the USSR to prove his existence, or would the question of his existence be determined differently from that of his accomplishments?


Cheers, DrDale

Vorkosigan

I don't think we have no methodology. Say rather that the methodology is ad hoc and shift with the data it is working on. I keenly feel the lack of theoretical models to underpin the whole mess, but I think lots of the ad hoc stuff works just fine.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

But the OP is asking -- how do we determine "plainly intended to be fictional in a non-fiction work?"

Vorkosigan

Toto

The test should be applied in all cases where there is the possibility of a legenday figure becoming historicized. This is more likely to happen to a religious figure, but also happens with political and nationalist figures.

This is actually an interesting question. Advocates of a historical Jesus admit that many of the deeds ascribed to him may be legenday, but deny that should be used against his exisence.

Chris Weimer

And rightly so, since we have examples of many people well-documented who have apocrypha written about them. Is that so surprising? Do all figures who have legendary deeds ascribed to them all of a sudden become zapped out of history? I think not.

Jabu Khan

This whole aproach strikes me as disingenuous. Notice noone ever says we accept the historocity of Osiris and Hercules why not Jesus. Jesus isn't attached to any historical deeds of great importance only religious mish mash there is no correspondance to Alexander the Great or Julius Ceaser.

Chris Weimer

This doesn't even make sense.

Why add the "great importance"? Since when is doing something important a requisite of historicity? Do you have cousins? Are there any that don't do anything important? Do people who don't do anything important zapped out of history when they die if they do nothing of great importance?

Jabu Khan

To be zapped out of history one has to be there to begin with. We're not talking about people right next to us that we know exist here. We're talking about someone who resembles a mythological being in all respects with no historical record of his existence.

DrDale

Well first of all the texts in which Hercules are mentioned do not describe themselves as historical, indeed they catagorically state they are fiction. As for Osiris the Egyption god, the fact that its a god that was never quoted to have existed in human form excludes him from being considered a possible historical figure (although it's quite possible that the myth of Osiris may have developed as a result of more down to earth events).

I take it you've been living in a cave on Mars for the past 2000 years, because that so called religious mish mash you speak of has had, and still is having, a profound effect on the world as a result of those who believe they are following his teachings.

Whether one subscribes to the beliefs of Christianity, Islam, Judeism etc is irrelevant. Any atheist/secular humanist/agnostic who appreciates reasoned and rational thought would be doing themselves a great disservice if they refused to understand the nature and origin of these beliefs given the increasing impact they are having on our daily lives.


Cheers, DrDale