Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 08-17-2011, 11:07 AM

Sugarhitman, before his

herem from FRDB, used to call anti-semitism Catholic as opposed to Christian.

I posted a link to the full text of

On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Maybe the closest anyone ever got to winnig a debating point with him.

andrewcriddle · 08-17-2011, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

This tradition is not simply about the spoils of war. It is specific regarding a number of issues: kill all the little boys, kill all the females who are not little girls and keep the little girls for yourselves. In some other traditions all the people are killed, old and young, while in yet others, no-one is killed after the battle.

Little girls here are chosen because of their sexual purity, ie they have not slept with men. There are no traditions that say what a male dominated society does with these sexually pure little girls. We are just told here that they are to preserve the little girls "for yourselves". We can see the significance of keeping females "for yourselves" in Gen 34:9, where marriages are being suggested, "take our daughters for yourselves" (see also Neh 13:25).

Rape was a part of the spoils in the ancient world. Moses is giving instructions to the army officers. The significance of keeping the little girls "for yourselves" is overt.

The young girls are clearly intended to (eventually) bear children to their captors. Probably in a formal concubinage.

I don't see any indication that sexual relations would begin until after the girls were old enough to bear children.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 08-17-2011, 01:21 PM

But Maimonides implies (from memory) that sexual relations can begin at 3 and half years of age here. Indeed the rabbinic sources seem more concerned about the status of the children that result from the mass raping of the captured (= mamzerim) than the fate of the women who of course have no legal status. Again all from memory

andrewcriddle · 08-17-2011, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But Maimonides implies (from memory) that sexual relations can begin at 3 and half years of age here. Indeed the rabbinic sources seem more concerned about the status of the children that result from the mass raping of the captured (= mamzerim) than the fate of the women who of course have no legal status. Again all from memory

Hi Stephan

Could you provide sources ?

It is a bit difficult to discuss this without proper references.

Amdrew Criddle

Toto · 08-17-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Dot

...

I'm not anti-Jewish, I'm anti-Talmudist Rabbinical Judaism. ...

Perchance, are you a follower of Christian Zionist Don Finto?

Quote:

The most serious threat to Jews and Judaism in this proselytizing effort is not the obvious problem of Jews converting to Christianity. Don Finto and the apostles claim this is happening in record numbers, but there is a more pressing issue. The NAR's proselytizing network is teaching millions of Christians that Jews are spiritually dead and Judaism is a rebellion against God, a reversal of progress that had been made in interfaith dialogue and acceptance since the Holocaust.

...

Don Finto authored a popular and widely distributed Christian Zionist book in 2001. In it, he quotes Apostle Dan Juster, head of an international network of Messianic congregations and ministries.

"I have become convinced that Rabbinic Judaism is a more severe departure from biblical faith than I had ever realized in my early days of Jewish recovery...

stephan huller · 08-17-2011, 01:34 PM

I was looking for a reference in Maimonides and stumbled instead to what I think must be the earliest reference I've ever seen to clitoris jewelry/piercing!

Quote:

“Why did the Torah [Num. 31:50] list the jewelry of the outer and the inner body together [ie, bracelets and finger rings, which go on the outer body, and clitoris rings and the like, which go on the inner body]? To teach you that any man who looks at the little finger of a woman, it is as if he looks at her vagina” (BT Berakhot 24a).

Who would have thought that stripper fashion went back that far?

stephan huller · 08-17-2011, 01:52 PM

This is the closest I can find right now. It only seems accepts the sexual intercourse with three year olds as an inevitability - from a PhD thesis https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/b...PhD_thesis.pdf

In the discussion of mSanhedrin 9:6:

Quote:

One who steals the qasavah, curses by divination, or has intercourse with an Aramean woman, zealots attack them. A priest who served while impure, his brothers, the priests, do not bring him to a court, rather youth of the priesthood take him outside the court and take out his brain with clubs. A stranger [i.e. a non-priest] who served in the Temple, Rabbi Akiva says: [execution] by strangulation, and the sages say: at the hands of heaven.

The following analysis is developed by the author of the dissertation:

Quote:

There are three types of acts that are subject to qanain pogin bo/bahem or attack/murder by zealots, the one of interest to us being the boel aramit or one who has intercourse with an Aramean woman. This type of sexual intercourse, usually interpreted as sexual intercourse in public, is deemed appropriate for attack by zealots, a kind vigilante justice. Following the reading of the mishna, this punishment is meted out upon the man (the boel aramit). The fate of the woman is not mentioned.

The footnote in this section reads:

Silence regarding her fate may be a consequence of generalized androcentrism, or it may signal that the Aramean woman herself, as a Gentile, is of no consequence to the rabbinic legal system. It is, therefore, the punishment of the "Jewish" man that is of key interest to our mishna, as the Aramean woman's situation falls beyond the scope of the halakhah. See however, Maimonides in Hilkhot Issurei Biah 12:9-10 who adds an apparently new law (the traditional commentators struggle with the apparent novelty, see Magid Mishneh, Yad HaMelekh, Osher LaMelekh to Issurei Biah 12:10) calling for the killing of a Gentile woman who has had sexual relations with a Jewish man:

12:9 - A Gentile man who has sexual relations with a daughter of yisrael, if she is a married woman, he is killed on her account (i.e. on account of adultery). If she is single, he is not killed.
12:10 - But, a yisrael who has sexual relations with the Gentile woman (or: female), whether she is a minor of three years and a day, or has reached the age of majority, whether single or a man's wife, and even if he was a minor of nine years and a day, since he had sexual relations with a Gentile woman deliberately, behold, she is killed, like an animal, because a stumbling block came to Israel through her.

Maimonides offers Numbers 31:16-17 (where God refers to Numbers 25 and orders the killing of any Moabite women of Shittim who have had sexual relations with a man) as a scriptural support. The ruling is reminiscent of Leviticus 20:15-16 which calls for a female animal with whom a human male has had sexual relations to be stoned to death (see bSanhedrin 54a).

Not exact but close to what I remember. I will have to look at the original material and get back to you.

semiopen · 08-17-2011, 02:17 PM

I think it is even a death penalty offence to jerk off an animal.

Was a little horrified to see this on a South Park rerun.

Also from memory Stephan.

stephan huller · 08-17-2011, 03:30 PM

I know, poor animal. Some creep wants to have sex with a cat and then the cat has to die - presumably for arousing him (!)

Little Dot · 08-17-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Ding dong,

If evangelical Christianity develops from Luther it has an anti-Semitic past.

Wrong! :down:

Quote:

Evangelicalism is a Protestant Christian movement which began in Great Britain in the 1730s[1] and gained popularity in the United States during the series of Great Awakenings of the 18th and 19th century.

Its key commitments are:
The need for personal conversion (or being "born again")
Actively expressing and sharing the gospel
A high regard for biblical authority, especially biblical inerrancy
An emphasis on teachings that proclaim the saving death and resurrection of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

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08-17-2011, 11:07 AM	#51
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	Sugarhitman, before his herem from FRDB, used to call anti-semitism Catholic as opposed to Christian. I posted a link to the full text of On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies Maybe the closest anyone ever got to winnig a debating point with him.

08-17-2011, 01:21 PM	#53
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But Maimonides implies (from memory) that sexual relations can begin at 3 and half years of age here. Indeed the rabbinic sources seem more concerned about the status of the children that result from the mass raping of the captured (= mamzerim) than the fate of the women who of course have no legal status. Again all from memory

08-17-2011, 02:17 PM	#58
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	I think it is even a death penalty offence to jerk off an animal. Was a little horrified to see this on a South Park rerun. Also from memory Stephan.

08-17-2011, 03:30 PM	#59
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I know, poor animal. Some creep wants to have sex with a cat and then the cat has to die - presumably for arousing him (!)

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