Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Adamu · 01-07-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

When the plural form Elohim is used together with a singular verb, the plural ending does not indicate a plural (gods) but rather an intensivum. The English translation would be something like "the very god" or "the, like, totally awesome and godly god (squeal)". Using a plural ending to indicate an intensivum seems to be normal in Hebrew.

Gerard Stafleu

You are correct.

As in YHWH elohim - YHWH being "the, like totally awesome and godly god" of all the gods, the elohim.
But it is clear the Hebrews recognized a plethora of gods as well as a divine council with whom YHWH consults before creating Man.
I think the plural is accurate in this instance, being "And the gods said, let us create Man in our image after our likeness."

Just as Enki consults the other gods in the mesopotamian creation of Man story, where he says "let us bind upon the creature our image" (or something to that effect).

ETA: And so it seems reasonable to suppose that the plural elohim is but a reflection of the much earlier gods of mesopotamia, the anunnaki, or "those from heaven to earth came," which, interestingly, sheds some light on the nephilim of 6:4, "the sons of the gods."

makerowner · 01-07-2008, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamu

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

I think that's too late a date. IMO, the Exile is the start of monotheism as the dominant religious view among Jews. When it became universal is hard to tell of course.

Right.

I think the exaltation of Marduk among the Babylonians was a move in the direction of monotheism, and may well be from where the Jews adopted it.

There was always a monolatrist trend in Jewish religion, but I think Zoroastrianism is a more likely source for the stronger post-Exile monotheism. This also makes sense if you consider other ideas that were adopted from Zoroastrianism, like angels and the resurrection of the dead at a final judgement.

Adamu · 01-07-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpollett

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldarion Lathria

The 'plural majestic' does not seem to have been used before the thirteenth century. In Spain, as late as 1598 the form was "Yo, el rey" "I, the King". Elohim oriiginally was a plural noun.

Eldarion Lathria

Chinese has a character zhen (pin yin) which can be used for the plural majestic. I am guessing it was in used before the thirteeth century, although someone who knows the history of Chinese can jump in and say when it appeared. My point though is that the plural majestic, although not in every language, has probably been in many languages throughout history.

No doubt.

Is it Chinese or Japanese (perhaps both?) which curiously resembles some Sumerian pictographs and cuneiform?

Adamu · 01-07-2008, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamu

Right.

I think the exaltation of Marduk among the Babylonians was a move in the direction of monotheism, and may well be from where the Jews adopted it.

There was always a monolatrist trend in Jewish religion, but I think Zoroastrianism is a more likely source for the stronger post-Exile monotheism. This also makes sense if you consider other ideas that were adopted from Zoroastrianism, like angels and the resurrection of the dead at a final judgement.

Perhaps, but aren't there clear elements of mesopotamian religions - city-state patron gods - found in Zoroaster's pantheon?

gstafleu · 01-07-2008, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamu

I think the exaltation of Marduk among the Babylonians was a move in the direction of monotheism, and may well be from where the Jews adopted it.

Nah, even in Sumer every city had its own god. E.g., Inanna was the patron goddess of Uruk, Enki was the god of Eridu. This led to the hilarious story where Inanna goes and "liberates" the principles of civilization, the "Me's" (pr: may's) from Enki, loads them into her heavenly boat, and makes a fast get-away to Uruk.

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu · 01-07-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamu

But it is clear the Hebrews recognized a plethora of gods as well as a divine council with whom YHWH consults before creating Man.

Originally they did, yes. But at around the time of the Babylonian exile what is now the OT was "edited" to make sure it conforms to monotheism, and as a result it mostly does. So:

Quote:

I think the plural is accurate in this instance, being "And the gods said, let us create Man in our image after our likeness."

The plural would only be accurate if the corresponding verb were also plural. As I recall from a previous thread on this subject, the verb is singular, and hence the plural form has to be interpreted as an intensivum. IOW, the editors didn't screw up on this occasion

.

Gerard Stafleu

Salam · 01-07-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

The religion of the Torah at the time of compilation was polytheist. It didn't become properly monotheist until the rise of the Pharisees in ca 70 AD, which was way later.

Could you show me your evidence?

Thank you.

Salam · 01-07-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamu

Given that Arabic and Hebrew share the same root I'd say the Quran's use of plural "gods" too, is a likely remanant of the earlier mesopotamian polytheistic tales.
Ibrahim, no doubt, was familiar with these stories.

The Quran doesn't use "gods", "Allah" is singular.

[Yusufali 2:63] And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah."

The author here uses "We" instead of I. That's what I meant by plural majestic in the Quran, to show that the use of the plural majestic took place before the 18th century.

J842P · 01-07-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamu

Given that Arabic and Hebrew share the same root I'd say the Quran's use of plural "gods" too, is a likely remanant of the earlier mesopotamian polytheistic tales.
Ibrahim, no doubt, was familiar with these stories.

The Quran doesn't use "gods", "Allah" is singular.

[Yusufali 2:63] And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah."

The author here uses "We" instead of I. That's what I meant by plural majestic in the Quran, to show that the use of the plural majestic took place before the 18th century.

Yes. I'm pretty sure Islam was firmly monotheistic since its beginning.

French Prometheus · 01-07-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpollett

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldarion Lathria

The 'plural majestic' does not seem to have been used before the thirteenth century. In Spain, as late as 1598 the form was "Yo, el rey" "I, the King". Elohim oriiginally was a plural noun.

Eldarion Lathria

Chinese has a character zhen (pin yin) which can be used for the plural majestic. I am guessing it was in used before the thirteeth century, although someone who knows the history of Chinese can jump in and say when it appeared. My point though is that the plural majestic, although not in every language, has probably been in many languages throughout history.

Zhen is not a plural pronoun. It's just the honorific first-person pronoun used by the emperor. It was also used byt the japanese emperor (pronounced as chin) until 1947. It appears on the Japanese constitution. nowadays, the emperor of japan uses the polite though standard "watakushi" when referring to himself.

Chinese honorifics

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