Spaz

I don't get it. Are chiasms things that are used often in literature of that period? It does seem kind of arbitrary, but if it's a technique that many people used at that time then I guess it has some legitimacy. You're using this to show that the story was written as fiction, right? That's what I understood from your posts.

Maybe you can link me to a good explanation or you can explain it to me youself if you want.

Vorkosigan

Here you go. Mark's interiors are always complex. This one also has the trait of the other two chiasms -- the brackets around the interior ask/answer a question.



The structure also displays the paired oppositions that the writer is so fond of. In A, Tyre and Sidon oppose Jerusalem, and Jesus (he) opposes the Pharisees. In the B bracket, the emptiness of focusing on clean hands is opposed to the real defilement of a dirty heart. C offers two inside/outside pairs. Market is opposed to house, and stomach opposes (eating) utensils. D opposes the question of defilement in D with the answer from Jesus in D' (in other chiasms in Mark a question-and-answer bracket is found before the center). At the same time the interior gives us yet another complex structure. In the interior, there are two pairs of triplets, each beginning with a citation of scripture, followed by Jesus' characterization of his opponents' creation of their own doctrines, and finally, an accusation that they have rejected the word of the Lord.

Vorkosigan

Chiasms were common in antiquity. Run the word through Google.

Well, it is certainly a construction.....what kind of construction cannot be determined on the ground that it is chiastic alone.

Here's a simple explanation.
http://www.hccentral.com/gkeys/chiasm.html

Michael

Amaleq13

I understand the skepticism but I'm wondering why none of the skeptics seem interested in actually doing the work necessary to substantiate their suspicions. Absent that substantiation, the doubts might be confused with wishful thinking.

JoeWallack

JW:
This post is so amazing it really should have its own thread but since Vork got it started, note how "Mark" gives "astonished", "amazed" and "marvelled" as the first and last reactions of individual stories for all the major characters in his play, with the exception of The Jewish Leaders! Headers and emphasis are mine saith the Lord while the translation is KJV. Enjoy!:

The Jews

1:
21 "And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him. 27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.
28 And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee.
29 And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue, they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John."

The Unbelieving Jews

6:
1 "And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching."

Note the extreme Contrivance here. The Unbelieving Jews do not have a last reaction of amazement so it's ascribed to Jesus to maintain the literary convention!

The Disciples

10:

23 "And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?"

Pilate

15:

4 "And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.
5 But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.
6 Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.
7 And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
8 And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them.
9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
11 But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.
14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.
15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
16 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band.
17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.
21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
22 And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph."

More contrivance having Pilate Marvel at why scourging and crucifixion could cause death after only 6 hours. Also note the spacing of these stories, about every 5 chapters. The chapter designations are not original of course but the fairly even group of Fours could suggest a Play.



Joseph

Haran

Amaleq, I asked Vorkosigan a question about how he would convince someone of his theories on chiasm in Mark. He nicely answered. Of course, I am still quite skeptical, as I believe (given enough time) that I could come up with something similar in other works (though I do not care to do so...sorry to disappoint), but I will watch the development of Vork's theory.

Frankly, I don't believe in Psychics, but I'm not going to spend my time trying to refute them unless I find significant reason to do so.

Celsus

Chiasms are very established and accepted in the study of the Pentateuch (Peter's example in the other thread is a good one). Interestingly enough, apologists have attempted to use chiasms as proof of single (presumably Mosaic) authorship of the Pentateuch. I think this is part and parcel of form criticism though, it really doesn't necessarily say too much about the texts' sources, although Gunkel's understanding of narrative units within the larger framework was certainly buttressed by these discoveries.

Joel

Edit: It's sort of the way our modern poetry has a variety of forms, and understanding the form is generally used as a first step in poetry reading. Similarly, Hebrew prose (and perhaps Mark) attempted this same sort of thing.

Amaleq13

Haran,

It is disappointing that no one is willing to attempt to substantiate this "suspicion". A ridiculous comparison of Vork's efforts with the claims of psychics, however, does not make it seem less like wishful thinking.

Amaleq13

Are there examples of it being used in accounts describing events known to be historical?

Celsus

Er, which part of the Hebrew Bible do you consider historical? Since I don't presume the ancients understood "historical" in any sort of way that we might, pretty much any of their "historical" writings using the chiastic form qualified. John Olley did some neat work on 1 Kings 1-11. Note the institution he's from. Here is another example, where the broken chiasmus is understood as evidence of it being part of a longer text.

Joel