Tickfast

I think someone pegged it...the age doesn't matter. Xians like to find a reason for 42 kids to get 'tare up' by two bears, and they think gang violence is sufficient justification.
I don't care if they were crips, all they did IN THE NARRATIVE was taunt a man for being bald.
'Go up, thou bald head.'
Now, if Elisha was not bald, then they kids were lying, and lying lips is something God finds an abomination.
But that isn't mentioned.
Violence isn't mentioned.
Whether or not they knew he was a prophet of the Lord is not mentioned.
Whether or not any child was actually killed by the bear is not mentioned, although it would seem a safe assumption that 42 'tare'-ed up kids, wounded before antibiotics, would probably have at least one fatality.
Now, i did some time in the Navy, and have been called everything from a rapist to a lesbian at one time or another. I don't usually get offended until blood flows. And i am bald. There was nothing in that story that justifies, to me, violent death at the paws of two she-bears.

Adding details to the biblical narrative (which the bible forbids), to make the kids deserve such treatment would seem an illegal rationalization.

But then again, so many xians seem to be looking forward to getting a front-row seat in heaven to watch me burn in hell, this shouldn't strike me as an unusual attitude.

Swifter

anyone know if scholars have debated this? Or why people translated it the way that it was translated if it didn't mean that? Looking for some good sources on this. I have read some before, but forgot where I read them at.

Steven Carr

The words 'qatan naar' are translated 'little child' everywhere else they appear in the OT in all Bibles.

The word 'naar' can be used for people who are not children, just as sometimes refer to the 'boys' in the Tampa Bay Buccs defense.

But the phrase is 'qatan naar'.

Translating one half of a phrase and pretending that the other half does not exist is lying.

Early Christian Greek Bibles translate the phrase as 'micro paidarion'

'Micro' you can probably work out.

'paidarion' is used in the NT to refer to the boy who brought Jesus the barley bread for the feeding of the 5,000

So the early Christians thought it should be translated 'small boys'.

Steven Carr

Glenn Miller writes ''Little children' is an unfortunate translation. The Hebrew expression neurim qetannim is best rendered 'young lads' or 'young men.' From numerous examples where ages are specified in the Old Testament, we know that these were boys from twelve to thirty years old. One of these words described Isaac at his sacrifice in Genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. In fact, the same word described army men in 1 Kings 20:14-15...'

The word 'soldiers' is used to describe men in the army.

That is why I have decided to kill (out of self-defense) the boy next door, who has a lot of 'toy soldiers'. It is the same word, for goodness sake! Take the phrase 'toy soldiers', and look , ONE OF THESE WORDS is used to describe mercenary killers who go on a spree of murder and rape. And the kid next door uses the same word about his toys!



The phrase is 'qataan naar', 'young ' or 'small' lads.

Translating half the phrase is lying. When Glenn says 'ONE OF THESE WORDS', he is engaging in the most blatant lying possible.

And the other link referred to has :-

'Too, the expression, “Go up...Go up,” is held by many scholars to reflect the wish of these young men that the prophet go ahead and ascend (as did Elijah – 2 Kgs. 2:11), i.e., leave the earth, that they might be rid of him!'

This is nonsense! The word for 'go up' is just an ordinary word for one person going to another person, and is used hundreds of times in the Old Testament. It has nothing to do with ascension. It is just a verb of movement. like our English word 'go'.

GakuseiDon

But the full use is "go up". Using one half of a phrase and pretending that the other half does not exist is lying...

According to Strongshttp://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...0412-9877.html, "alah" also meant "raise", as in "Solomon raised the levy".

Steven Carr

The Hebrew word is 'alah'. One word not two. I am not translating just one word of a two word phrase.

Uses 889 times in the Old Testament.

Were there really 889 ascenscions?


One use is Genesis 13:1 ' And Abram went up 05927 out of Egypt , he, and his wife , and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the south .

GakuseiDon

Sorry, Steven, I editted my post and added the quote from Strong before I saw your reply.

"Alah" had various nuances. The kids could have meant both "go" and "ascend". It fits with the mocking theme.

Swifter

Thanks for the info Steven, it was very helpful. Do you have any sources handy? If not I will go look around myself. Not the best at debating this however, so any help is welcomed =).

Steven Carr

It could have, but as it was used more than 880 times just to mean 'go', ascend is the least likely meaning.

The Christian web page says 'Too, the expression, “Go up...Go up,” is held by many scholars to reflect the wish of these young men that the prophet go ahead and ascend (as did Elijah – 2 Kgs. 2:11), i.e., leave the earth, that they might be rid of him! Also, the taunt, “thou bald head,” was likely a reproach. Old Testament scholar John Whitcomb has suggested that this was an expression “of extreme contempt. They were pronouncing a divine curse upon him, for which baldness was often the outward sign (cf. Isa. 3:17a, 24)” (1971, p. 68).'

Intriguing that the page forgets to mention the 800 plus normal uses of 'alah'........

Is a bald head really 'often' the outward sign of a divine curse?

GakuseiDon

Wouldn't it depend on the context? And isn't that what we are arguing here?
The Isaiah quote does lend some support for this. Was Elisha bald?

What I don't understand is why the bears were sent out in the first place. AFAIK this is usually blown off with "those whacky blood-thirsty Hebrews", but what IS the consensus on this (other than "those whacky blood-thirsty Hebrews")?