Buffman

Hmmmmmm? I am not sure I know how to address the various thoughts/positions in that paragraph that would meaningfully contribute to advancing insight into the original issue of this thread.---What if I were to claim that every human starts out as a scientist but that the majority of folks find other pursuits to be more interesting, inviting...or perhaps simply less demanding/rewarding? This would seem to be the case as "basic" scientific investigation has become increasingly more knowledgeable and complicated, and therefore, by necessity, more specialized.

You speak of how "you" perceive the natural world around you. Well, that world is the environment in which we all find ourselves. So what do you suppose causes normal, healthy, individuals to perceive it differently? Don't we all start with the same set of genetic senses and drives? Can those senses and drives deceive us? How do we know when they do? Wasn't that one of the motivations for developing scientific instruments that could aid in eliminating sensory deceptions? (Things that we could not see with the naked eye could kill us. The Moon is not made of green cheese. Leeches don't suck out the evil humours. Etc.)

Hell! My knowledge of science is extremely limited, and the more I learn, the more limited I realize that it is. However, the more I do learn, the less I need the escape mechanism of supernatural explanations for why my environment is as it is. IOW, the more I learn, the less I need a "God of the Gaps" to satisfy my natural curiosity about the unknown. I suspect that is why many organized religions tend to struggle against scientific inquiry. They fear that the more people learn about themselves and their environment, the less they will need supernatural explanations. But this leads us into a discussion of why so many people have a need to believe in the supernatural (A God). So when you claim that you do not think that any increase in your scientific knowledge would lessen your belief in the supernatural, I believe you. That is why I do not view you as a "complete" freethinker...using my definition of the word. You appear to have placed a supernatural impediment directly in the path of your freethinking ability...whether "you" realize it or not. (i.e.: Your perceptions of the natural world are based exclusively on your own senses and drives. They are not without error/misinterpretation. My kind of "freethinker" constantly attempts to minimize those errors and misinterpretations. Scientific inquiry has proven to be one of the most successful methods of doing exactly that.)

(Chortle! Chortle! Thanks.)

I believe I understood. If your God provided everything that we humans use to accomplish what we do, exactly who, or what, provided your God with the where-with-all to do what you believe he does? In basic terms, "From whence did your God arise?" (Personally, I believe he arose from the minds of man.)

Yup! I'm afraid that you did. There is nothing for you to be sorry about. You either believe the things you wrote or you don't. All I would ask is that you take the time to understand why you do or don't.

Exactly what does that mean? Please explain! For me, that is merely a cute amorphism.

That sounds very much like an "Appeal to Common Belief." (Have you ever noticed how often religious fundamentalists strike out at the "Intellectual Boogyman." Why do you suppose that they do?) Are intellectuals humans...subject to the identical senses and drives that we all possess in varying degrees? I have no idea about the percentages, but I suspect that there are intellectual/religious assholes just like there are common sense assholes. (Pardon the language.)

Evoken

Well, yes and the more we learn about the world the more complicated and specialized it gets. But after all, not everyone has to be a scientist, we are all different and contribute to society in different ways. And just because a person is not a scientist or has a good deal of scientific knowledge does not means that this person has a poor intelligence or anything, that very person could excel in other equally functional areas.

Yes we all live in the same world and that doesn't changes. What changes is how we perceive it and how we learn from it..and that is good. Science has helped us to understand it much better over the years. But what we feel from what we see, hear or do and how we lead our life that is something IMO apart from science.

This is exactly why I was refusing to get into any discussion about Christianity and my personal beliefs and sticking into the discussion over what was a freethinker/skeptic. I am not a creationist or like you told me in another post that I sounded like an Intelligent Designer. I know evolution is real and I don't deny that nor do I attempt to "fit" science into my religion because I consider both to be entirely different things that serve a different purpose even when IMO they complement each other.

And when I say that no matter how much scientific knowledge I acquire my belief in God remains intact, I don't mean that I am predisposed to evade anything science discovers in order to keep my beliefs. To me science does not poses a treat to my beliefs because they are different from each other. I accept, like I said scientific claims, but my personal conclusion is that God created everything, evolution et all. I can't "prove" God to you..that is a matter of faith(so far) but neither can I impose that faith on you, if I do that I'd be just like the fundamentalist.

If I am not a freethinker as far as your definition of the word goes because of this, then I guess I can't help it.

I don't know, like I said..I can't "prove" God to you and if I attempted to do that I would be lying. I could share with you the reasons as to why I believe in God(something I think you will disagree with and reject) but other than that I can't do much.

Science can explain me how a three grows from a seed, but it can't tell me why I find the three beautyful. It can tell me how a knife is made..but it can't tell me to use it to cut vegetables or to kill someone. It can tell me how I was born but not how to live. To me religion is on the other side of the same coin and is there to answer those questions and to give hope and meaning to life. I understand if you find this "merely a cute amorphism" and that is fine, after all we all have our different perceptions of the world like I said. The important thing is that we all respect each other and get along(at least that is how I see it).

Don't worry about the language, I agree that there are that type of persons everywhere..all groups have their share of stupidity anyway.

Buffman

The issue isn't who contributes what to society. The issue isn't whether one is or isn't a scientist. The issue isn't who is or is not intelligent. The issue isn't who does or does not excel "in other equally functional areas." The issue is why non-believers view believers as having limits to their freethinking capabilty.

Unless you have some grasp of how and why your senses and drives function as they do, you remain quite vulnerable to whatever superstition/myth is in vogue at the moment in your location. (Science is a way of understanding natural phenomena.) Just how long do you think you would have been able to safely lead your life if you didn't have some basic understanding of natural phenomena? Exactly why do you think that we aren't continuing to worship the Gods and Godesses of the ancient Greeks? Or any of the other gods and godesses of the human societies and civilizations that have preceded us? Upon what basis do we now call what they felt, saw, heard, smelled or tasted superstitious myths? Exactly how do you differ from them? "You know more?" About what do you know more? What evidence do you offer as proof that you know more than they did? Your human senses and the way you lead your life? (Are you sure that that is the path you wish to follow?)

And that is what I have been unsuccessfully attempting to do. I have been trying to discuss this issue from the non-believer's view. You are the one presenting the views of the believer. The believer in what? The supernatural and miracles? Just your personal interpretations (beliefs) of your senses and drives? You are the one that keeps introducing Christianity.---Several folks have already told you that the level of freethinking and skepicism can be directly limited by the number of superstitions and myths we allow to cloud our critical reasoning process and the amount of accurate knowledge we bring to bare on any issue.

Exactly how do they complement each other?

Who created your god? Why do you need a creator beyond your parents? What specific attributes do you ascribe to your IPU? (Did Santa promise you presents if you were a "good" little boy? What happened if you were bad? Did you ever wonder how Santa could know if every little boy and girl in the world was good or bad? Did you ever question how Santa could visit every one of them in just one night? How old were you before you began to realize who and what Santa really was and represented? Why are the claims about Santa's abilities any less convincing than those made about supernatural entities? So ask yourself, if your God didn't create him/her/itself, then who or what did?

Please read my phrasing carefully. I maintain that your freethinking is limited by your supernatural beliefs...if you are sincere in those beliefs. You could well be the world's greatest freethinker in other areas. However, "in my definition," unless someone applies their critical thinking skills across the board, then they do not merit the label of "freethinker." I hope I have finally made that clear.

I would honestly hope that you can appreciate just how many extremely well versed beleivers have shared their God beliefs with me over the last nearly 70 years. To date, none have been able to offer any verifiable evidence to support their beliefs beyond "just have faith." I have an abundence of faith, hope and charity...just not in the supernatural.

I hold some very different views about much of what you claim in that previous paragraph. I spent a great deal of time and energy examining the purpose, meaning and direction of the universe and of human life. As I will now repeat for the third time, I came to the realization that scientific inquiry offered humans the best opportunity of accurately "understanding natural phenomena." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. WHY? A knife is a manufactured, inanimate, object/implement/tool/utensil/instrument...as is a sharp rock or piece of bone. Its purpose in the natural world is dictated by the desired result of its use. How an individual uses it is determined by many external factors which may, or may not, be under the reasoned control of the user. You have been conditioned on how to live your life since conception...and before (social folkways and mores...and laws.) How long do you think you would last if you were dropped off in the Arctic tundra without clothes or survial training/skills/instruments? (I had to smile when I read your remark about no one telling you "how" to live. Is that not one of the prime goals of organized religions? Telling others how they should live?)

IMHO, most folks aren't stupid; they are merely ignorant of the accurate facts. The assholes to whom I refer are those individuals who know the accurate facts but ignore them for reasons that only they seem to find advantageous.

I hope you will understand if I choose to move on to other issues. Thank you for the "discussion."

Evoken

Sure..thank you too for the "discussion". Neither I will be able to make you understand and neither you will be able to make me understand and from the tone of your post it seems it wasn't going in the right direction.

Gawen

I was done with my Mod duties this morning and decided to take the time to read...now that I had the time and came across this.

Is this what you mean?

"Dad, did Jesus REALLY die on the cross for our sins?"

"Yes son, He did. It's good that you question like this. And all your answers can be found in the bible. The bible tells us so."...*pats kid on top of head*

"But dad, where is the proof outside the bible?".

*Dad with scornful look*...Now that is just downright rebellious, son. I'm going to have to punish you for letting Satan make you ask rebellious questions like that."...*takes off belt*..."The nerve of children these days!"

Evoken

Nope it is more like:

A:"Show me proff of your God"

T:"I believe in God because of the world around me, it has lead me to that conclusion."

A:"Ah..I see. Well who created God then?"

T: "God was not created God has always existed."

A: "But God must have a cause..everything has a cause."

Etc..