Clivedurdle

I am difficulty tracking down the first edition of Golden Bough on line - as It is out of copyright, I assume it is online somewhere for free!

Mark Mc

Golden Bough

andrewcriddle

The problem with claiming that myths generally derive from rituals is that in many cases there is no hard evidence.

Some Supporters of such a theory deny that prima-facie myths without any trace of rituals are really myths at all; eg according to Kirk some Anthropologists regard as non-mythical the Australian Aborigine story of how the 'Two Men' were once travelling near the South Coast one had the water bag and refused it to the other who pierced it, the water came out drowning them and becoming the sea.

Others postulate rituals behind myths on scanty evidence; eg the claim by Cornford that the Enuma Elish Babylonian Creation myth is derived from Babyjonian ritual because the New Year festival at Babylon (in which the King was re-consecrated as the God's representative) involved among other things the recitation of Enuma Elish.

Another problem is that even when a ritual is associated with a myth the connection may be secondary. At the Septerion festival at Delphi a hut was burned, a boy and companions fled to Tempe purified himself and returned in triumph. The associated myth involves Apollo slaying Python although the connection seems remote.

A more balanced view than the idea that myths generally express ritual, may be that myths of combat involving divinities often though not always have a ritual basis, most other types of myth occasionally have such a basis but usually don't.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle

Who has posited a one way movement from ritual to myth? There is nothing like that in Frazer.

Isn't a ritual the enactment of a story? So ritual is a specialised form of theatre and storytelling.

Isn't it all about trying to explain and control the world, and using symbols, actions, magic in various formulations of actions and words?

Why would all myths have rituals? It is only a matter of transmission technique - not all books have been turned into films, not all stories have been turned into religions.

Ted Hoffman

What would qualify as hard evidence? Do you think that circumcision preceded the story of Abraham [and his covenant with God] or vice versa?
This really is a summary of views. It does not tell us much except what you consider "balanced" - which is a question of personal taste. To falsify the idea that rituals precede myths, you need to provide an example of a myth that preceded a ritual. Then proceed to show that in the majority of cases, that indeed is the norm. Which mythologists argue that rituals precede myths? Which books? Which myths?

Clivedurdle

Action, actor, all the world's a stage! Frazer has brilliantly described the various ways humans have symbolically interacted with the world, with the fascinating issue that we now have many levels of hyper reality - money, law.....

May I reccomend

Baggott a beginners guide to reality, which according to Amazon is not yet published but I have a copy from my local shop!

andrewcriddle

Obviously some stories develop to explain and legitimise rituals. The (proto)-Israelites probably circumcised their sons before any narrative of a covenant of circumcision. However, I'm doubtful whether cases where doing x/ is justified by claiming that an ancestor did x/ are really relevant to the wider range of cases where a story of an ancestor, hero etc doing x/. is claimed to be associated with a ritual y/ where x/ and y/ are related in some way but not at all the same. Eg the intersting example where the ritual of 'Gardens of Adonis' is clearly related to the story of the death and/or descent into the underworld of Adonis but neither is simply a version in another medium of the other.
My main point is that there are lots of rituals withouy apparent associated myths and lots of myths without apparent associated rituals. I'm not sure how far you're disagreeing.

If you're claiming that in all cultures most myths have associated rituals then I think you're empirically wrong. For example many of the famous Greek myths have no evidence of an associated ritual Cadmus and the Sown Men, Perseus and Andromeda, Heracles and Cerberus etc. In the Near East the story of Gilgamesh shows little association with rituals.

Also some important rituals have no known associated myths eg the 'Greater Ritual' celebrated once every two years at the sanctuary of Demeter at Eleusis

My second point is that even if a myth and ritual are associated the association can be of several diiferent types.

Some times the connection is weak and secondary. The pig ritual at the Athenian Thesmophoria was explained by saying that when Hades abducted Persephone the pigs of Eubouleus fell into the chasm.

Given all this a General claim that myths express ritual is unhelpful and it would be better IMO to consider specific myths and types of myths rather than the relation of myths in general to ritual in general.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle

And some huge myths with very closely related rituals - Jesus and the Eucharist for example.

Ted Hoffman

I agree. My reading informs me that typically, myths are fabricated later to legitimize rituals, and not vice versa. If you have any examples of myths that precedes their associated rituals, I would like to see them, and in my view, they would constitute exemptions to the rule.
Thanks.
Now, where is Joel?