BadBadBad

There's no command from God, but there's a sign from God that God is picking up the challenge. Not just a sign, but the spirit of the Lord came upon him.

29 Then the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed through Gilead and Manasseh. He passed on to Mizpah of Gilead, and from Mizpah of Gilead he passed on to the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, "If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, 31 then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord's, to be offered up by me as a burnt offering." 32 So Jephthah crossed over to the Ammonites to fight against them; and the Lord gave them into his hand.

He had the history of Abraham right? God asked for the murder of his son, but he didn't go through with it. He had the Ten commandments second hand from the breath of God himself right? Thou shalt not kill and all. So therefore from what we've learned in this thread, since Jephthah believed that the spirit of God was upon him and that God wanted him to kill his child and he did, he was insane or demon possessed. It couldn't have been God that wanted him to fulfill his promise. God should have been satisfied with his willingness to fulfill his promise. It's just a little odd that the God inspired Bible doesn't point that out as the moral of this story.

BadBadBad

So Christians are able to judge whether someone else has experienced something from God but not necessarily themselves? So I'm confused. In Laney's case, which Christian am I supposed to believe you or her?

Nectaris

My apologies for almost posting the same thing you did, later in the thread.

If Jepthah knew the story of Abraham, he would have also known the story of Moses and the conquest, which contains stories of God-inspired killings (including a story where Moses and his men slaughter the Midianites--Moses' wife is a Midianite). I think that Jephthah's knowlege of the Heberew Scriptures is pretty much irrelevant. I would argue that even if God had never commanded (or inspired) someone to kill a member of his own family (and not just the willingness to do the act) that one who believes in a personal God could not dismiss the possibity that God could give the command because he or she believes in the concept that there is higher power with access to all knowledge that we humans cannot possibly understand.

It is also quite possible that (1) if Jephthah was a person and the events actually ocurred more or less in the manner described and (2) Jephthah was familiar with at least some of the Torah (at least the Abrahamic near sacrifice story) that he may have had only had knowlrdge of the E account, in which no angel stops Abraham from slaying Isaac and Isaac is never heard from again (in the E account that is).

Dave

LP675

I don't know why these first 2 points were directed at me. I don't think they make any sense or have any bearing on anything I have said.

People can be demon possessed as well as insane. Why would you believe they couldn’t?

I have explained how any other Christian could tell. It is in conflict with end times teaching for example.

Jephthah made a foolish vow, and the bible never commends his actions. The whole book of judges is full of examples of people doing things they thought were good, but not enquiring of God. It was a strange and perverse era, that is the whole point of the book “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.� Ju 17:6. The last chapters from 17 on for example are specially selected stories that exemplify this misguided and perverse religiosity.

LP675

Yeah, I have seen those verses bantered around occasionally. Unfortunately they don’t mean what you wish they did. Neither are talking about people killing their own children. Couldn’t find a reference worth citing for you on Exodus 22:29, but from memory it was a command to give the child into the service of Yahweh, as also commanded in Exodus 13:2, and they also had the option of ‘redeeming’ them upon payment of a certain sum.

As for the Leviticus verse it also apparently has nothing to do with Israelites sacrificing their own young children according to J E Hartley.
“27:29 Another law regarding חר×?, “the devoted or proscribed thing,â€? is given. In most other passages the use of חר×? describes something so taboo that it must be completely destroyed. Certain spoils taken in a holy war were so devoted (e.g., Josh 6:17; 7:1, 11–13, 15). If a person becomes so devoted, that one comes under the death penalty; there is no means of פדה, “redemption,â€? for that person. How does a person in Israel come to be classified as “a devoted thingâ€?? The law in Exod 22:19[20] provides an explanation. It states that a person who sacrifices to a pagan god becomes devoted and falls under the death penalty. That party was most likely declared devoted by a judicial body. Another example is found in Deut 13:13–19(12–18); any group of wicked men who lead the community away from service to God become devoted to destruction. (Hartley, J. E. 1998. Vol. 4: Word Biblical Commentary : Leviticus)â€?

I doubt you could find any conservative scholar arguing these passages were commands for the Israelites to kill their own young.

LP675

As I have explained, Christians examine Scripture, and seek the Holy Spirit's guidance. You decide who’s opinion is in line with the teachings of Christianity, and if you are a Christian what you believe God is telling you about it. Ultimately you have to decide for yourself. It doesn’t seem hard in this case though.

Sorry I don’t think I will respond to your post directed at me before this one as it is mostly nonsense (Although if you insist I will show you why).

Solsticin

Should we start referring to this as Father Abraham Syndrom? FAS?

Ever thought about that whole "Father" Abraham trying to kill his own kid thing? hehe

LP675

The question we have been arguing about is did the jury, or do Christians, have any grounds for deciding the command was not from God. Mauling bears, acts of war, executing women, and marrying prisoners of war all have NOTHING to do with this case (i.e. Woman claims God commanded her to “get her house in order�, which involves killing her children because of the imminent return of Christ).

I love yez all! (with Jeff Phenek boxer slur accent)

LP

Kassiana

If God speaks to you, are you insane?
--No, but God is. Next?

brighid

Actually it has everything to do with this case, and other, especially in light of your claim that God has never commanded such things and therefore God was not speaking to this woman.

The Bible clearly states that God has commanded such things, and therefore (given the apriori assumption this God exists) it is reasonable to conclude that God was talking to this woman.

This woman surely believed (just as Andre Yates believed, and sooooo many others who have killed at what they felt was the urging of God) God was speaking to her.

The question is how can one determine whether or not a God (the perfectly good deity Christianity claims exists) or someother entity is ACTUALLY speaking to any individual? How do you know that Satan isn't speaking to you? Do you simply feel that anything "good" (which obviously this woman thought it was good to kill her children) comes from God and anything bad (which mentally healthy people find murdering living children to be) comes from Satan? what is your test?

As atheists who have no apriori assumption the the existence of gods and demons, we try our best to make educated guesses based on the facts in evidence.

The facts are that we know mental illnesses (organic defects) have been proven to causes hallucinations that can be described as visions and the hearing of voices in ones head. Usually these voices compel the mentally ill individual to do things, very often bad things. We know that medication can abate these symptoms in most people and the voices go away. We have no evidence that demons possess people, or even that demons exists. Wem know people see things that don't actually exist and experience very intense sensory inputs from taking hallucinatory drugs. These instances are verifiable through reproduction in laboratory experiments.

Therefore it seems there is a logical explanation for these "voices" and "visions" and in this case it is mental illness. Not God, not demons ... but the Bible gives plenty of evidence that God has and is capable of commanding such attrocities as directing a mother to stone her children to death.

Brighid