Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 04-29-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby Lardmore

I did not hear Pastor Smith attribute what he said to Disraeli, but I suspect that is his source--or rather, the apocryphal story about Disraeli is his source.

Interesting to see other examples besides the Jews given above.

Admitting the idea was not his would have been excessive honesty.

Isaac Asimov, being an atheist, may have suggested that the survival of the Jews was do to psychohistory.

PhilosopherJay · 04-29-2009, 07:54 PM

Hi Tubby,

The Jews had a homeland at least till 137 C.E. They regained their homeland in 1949, which makes it only 1812 years without a homeland rather than the 2,000 stated by Smith.

The Assyrians are an ethnic group of some 3.3 million people that trace their history back to the neo-Assyrian empire from 934-609 B.C.E. Since the Fall of Ninevah in 612, they have not had a homeland. So here is an ethnic group that has gone 2600 years without a homeland, about 800 years more than the Jews.

The Qiang of China are an ethnic group with only 200,000. They appear to have not had a self-governing homeland from for some 2,000 years. According to Wikipedia:

Quote:

The Qiang worship five major gods, twelve lesser gods, some tree gods, and numerous stones worshiped as gods. A special god is worshiped as well in every village and locality, who are mentioned by name in the sacred chants of the Qiang priests. Mubyasei, also known Abba Chi, is known as the god of heaven is also considered as the supreme god. This term is also used to refer to a male ancestor god, Abba Sei. In certain places, Shan Wang, the mountain god, is considered to worshiped the supreme god. The Qiang people have also adopted many practices of the Taoist gods as well.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby Lardmore

This morning on Christian radio I heard part of a message by Pastor Chuck Smith. Googling that name finds this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Smith_(pastor)

which I presume is talking about the same person I heard on the radio.

He casually tossed off this line: "If you want proof that the Bible is true, look at the Jews... No ethnic group could survive for 2,000 years without a homeland, but they did."

The idea of course is that the God of the Bible has protected His chosen people (if we conveniently ignore pogroms and the Holocaust) through supernatural means.

Any comments on this? Is he correct in implying that no other group has pulled off such a feat? What naturalistic explanation could account for their survival?

Sheshonq · 05-01-2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby Lardmore

This morning on Christian radio I heard part of a message by Pastor Chuck Smith. Googling that name finds this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Smith_(pastor)

which I presume is talking about the same person I heard on the radio.

He casually tossed off this line: "If you want proof that the Bible is true, look at the Jews... No ethnic group could survive for 2,000 years without a homeland, but they did."[/i]

Armenians
Gypsies

The stupid should hurt. Then maybe the fundies wouldn't be stupid.

jkhuss1 · 05-01-2009, 04:41 AM

Strike the Shephard and the Sheep will be scattered. . .

The Bible talks that because the Jews Rejected their Messiah, "Jesus Christ", when He came that they would be scattered unto all lands until the End of The Ages. But that they would be gathered back together as a nation in the same generation of their Messiahs Return. . .

The Jews have faced severe persecution, Martyrdom, and have been plagued with fears since the the rejection of their Messiah. . .
But the Bible says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Rev. 1:7
It doesn't matter what you believe - when Jesus comes. . .

Luke 20:17
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

A child that is wrong. . .And a Father that is right. . . Which one always wins?

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Toto · 05-01-2009, 05:52 AM

[STAFFWARN]Preaching is not welcome here.[/STAFFWARN]

xaxxat · 05-01-2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuss1

Strike the Shephard and the Sheep will be scattered. . .

The Bible talks that because the Jews Rejected their Messiah, "Jesus Christ", when He came that they would be scattered unto all lands until the End of The Ages. But that they would be gathered back together as a nation in the same generation of their Messiahs Return. . .

The Jews have faced severe persecution, Martyrdom, and have been plagued with fears since the the rejection of their Messiah. . .
But the Bible says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Rev. 1:7
It doesn't matter what you believe - when Jesus comes. . .

Luke 20:17
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

A child that is wrong. . .And a Father that is right. . . Which one always wins?

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Uhm, how do you figure that, since Jebus didn't meet any of the qualifications required to be a Jewish messiah?

:huh:

semiopen · 05-01-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Uhm, how do you figure that, since Jebus didn't meet any of the qualifications required to be a Jewish messiah?

:huh:

Personally, the arguments from both sides seem rather technical and frankly trivial.

I'm not looking forward to a time when I've got a schlep a cow to the third temple before I can eat a hamburger. And chicks in long dresses playing tamborines are so not sexy.

DrJim · 05-01-2009, 08:51 AM

I'm not sure when the Parsis (Zoroastrians) moved to India but they hung on until the present. There is a small and very tight knit community in Calgary. Not sure the numbers.

premjan · 05-01-2009, 08:55 AM

1000+ years ago.

Diogenes the Cynic · 05-01-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

It is the other way around, if they are the chosen people of god, why have they faired so badly?

And, if JC is the Jewish messia, then all Jews tday are in the wrong..

Not all the Jews are wrong. There are groups of Messianic Jews that believe Jesus is the Messiah.

If Jesus is the Messiah, then all of the Hebrew Bible is wrong about what the Messiah supposed to be and God lied to the Jews.

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05-01-2009, 04:41 AM	#24
jkhuss1 Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 173	Strike the Shephard and the Sheep will be scattered. . . The Bible talks that because the Jews Rejected their Messiah, "Jesus Christ", when He came that they would be scattered unto all lands until the End of The Ages. But that they would be gathered back together as a nation in the same generation of their Messiahs Return. . . The Jews have faced severe persecution, Martyrdom, and have been plagued with fears since the the rejection of their Messiah. . . But the Bible says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Rev. 1:7 It doesn't matter what you believe - when Jesus comes. . . Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? A child that is wrong. . .And a Father that is right. . . Which one always wins? John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

05-01-2009, 05:52 AM	#25
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	[STAFFWARN]Preaching is not welcome here.[/STAFFWARN]

05-01-2009, 08:51 AM	#28
DrJim Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lethbridge AB Canada Posts: 445	I'm not sure when the Parsis (Zoroastrians) moved to India but they hung on until the present. There is a small and very tight knit community in Calgary. Not sure the numbers.

05-01-2009, 08:55 AM	#29
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	1000+ years ago.

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