Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 02-28-2007, 09:38 AM

So withing 22 months of the crucifixion, Christians had dropped from their creed any mention of a bodily Jesus being touched and walking the Earth?

The converts to Jesus-worship (who Paul praises to the skies in 1 Corinthians 1), scoffed at the idea that God would choose to raise a corpse.

Paul's response is to tell them that Jesus became a life-giving spirit.

I think your professor could learn something from these Jesus-worshippers who Paul said had been enriched in speech and knowedge of every kind.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-28-2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apikorus

Where the hell do you go to school? A private institution, one would hope.

Blackwater has already identified the school as Indiana Wesleyan University, which identifies itself as follows:

Quote:

Indiana Wesleyan University is an Evangelical Christian liberal arts coeducational university operated by The Wesleyan Church. It offers a blend of liberal arts and professional educational programs leading to the Associate of Arts, Associate of Science, Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Science, Master of Arts, Master of Science, Master of Education and Master of Business Administration degrees....

... As our mission states: “Indiana Wesleyan University is a Christ-centered academic community committed to changing the world by developing students in character, scholarship, and leadership.”

It appears to be accredited, at least as far as stuff like business and education degrees. The Bible classes are completely devotional, of course, but the scool doesn't appear to offer degrees in Religion or Bible studies. It doesn't appear to be a seminary, so much as a liberal arts college with preaching.

Blackwater will have to suffer through the indoctrination class to get the credits he needs but probably won't actually hear much genuine scholarship in the class.

Jedi Mind Trick · 02-28-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Blackwater will have to suffer through the indoctrination class to get the credits he needs but probably won't actually hear much genuine scholarship in the class.

Alas... this I must suffer...

Our last paper we are supposed to write is a reflection paper on how the class has influenced our thinking in regards to the bible and the NT in particular. I already have in mind that I will talk about how I am not Christian and such... It wasn't a requirement to get into the university so why should it be a problem now?

As for scholarship it is practically non-existent in the class. For instance, last week we had to divide up into two teams and debate "Is the bible reliable." I was on the skeptic side of the debate and I mentioned things like the fact that we don’t know who the authors of the gospels were, that there are variant texts (the prof jumped in and said that the variants show only minor differences), that we do not have the originals, that what we do have are fragments dating into the 2nd century, etc… the prof had to jump in and defend the bible himself by stating that there are thousands of manuscripts, many more than are needed to reconstruct the originals with certainty and I asked him about the earliest dates for these “thousands of manuscripts” and he hem hawed around about it so I dropped it. It ended up being a debate between the skeptics and the prof, the other team didn’t have a clue. It is clearly a class for evangelizing the students before they are let go into the workforce.

But overall it's been a good school, really it has...

andrewcriddle · 02-28-2007, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Atheist

I'm not THAT much of an expert in Biblical history, certainly not as much as you people. Here's a claim made by the author about how the accounts of Jesus life as we have them could not have possibly been myth: He cites the epistle I Corinithians in verse 15, and how Paul is describing basic beliefs about Christianity, how Christ was killed and resurrected in the 3rd day etc. Then the author says,
"If the crucificion was as early as AD 30, Paul's conversions was about AD 32. Immediately Paul was ushered into Damascus where he met with a Christian names Ananias, and some other disciples. His first meeting with the apostles would have been around AD 35. At some point along there Paul was given this creed, which had already been formulated and was being used in the early church. Now here you have the key facts about Jesus' death for our sins, plus a detailed lit of those to whom he appeared in resurrected form- all dating back to withing two to five years of the events themselves. That's not later mythology from 40 or more years down the road as Armstrong suggested. A good case can be made for saying that Christian belief in the resurrection, though not yet written down, can be dated within two years of that event."

I think its all unsupported assertions basically. Assuming there even was a resurrection at AD 30, why would Paul's conversion be at 32. Just where did disciples come from in Damascus, if Christianity was only 2 years old. Says who that he met the disciples? But I don't know enough about the actual history. Can somebody help me deconstruct this arguement?

The Chronology of Paul depends on how reliable you find the various sources of evidence, Acts and odd snippets from the epistles of Paul.

However, if you take at face value the evidence in Acts, and the evidence in Paul, such as his dating his escape from Damascus during the reign of King Aretas in 2 Corinthians, and his statement in Galatians about the length of time between various events in his life, then it is unlikely that his conversion can be much after 35 CE.

Andrew Criddle

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-28-2007, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

But about Strobel’s claim of 22 months… does anyone have any info debunking it?

We would have to see the specific bases for Strobels' dating of Paul's conversion so early.

The kerygma itself doesn't really help apologists as much as they would like since it contains no mention of an empty tomb or a physical resurrection, speaks only of "appearances" which do not fit the appearance chronology of any of the Gospels, which makes no distinction between the nature of Christ's appearances to Cephas, the 12, James, the "500," and Paul himself. Moreover, Paul claims that he "received" his information directly from Jesus and "not from any man."

Robert Price argues that the kerygma is a post-Pauline interpolation. It might be fun to raise some of Price's arguments in class.

Jedi Mind Trick · 02-28-2007, 10:36 AM

Thanks for the link!

Interpolation... that would raise my prof's bloodpressure.

pharoah · 02-28-2007, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

But about Strobel’s claim of 22 months… does anyone have any info debunking it?

Could you get the exact quote from your professor? A search of the web and Google Books didn't turn up anything about this 22 month claim. Considering the New Testament's almost total lack of dates, 22 months seems too precise a claim for even Strobel to make.

Jedi Mind Trick · 02-28-2007, 11:01 AM

What a co-wink-a-dink... this is the same question I started this thread about.

Can these threads be combined?

Jedi Mind Trick · 02-28-2007, 11:05 AM

Is the book Lee Strobel's "The Case For Christ" by any chance?

Toto · 02-28-2007, 11:24 AM

One review I found claimed that Strobel spent exactly 22 months researching this. Perhaps there was a bit of confusion in this professsor's memory?

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02-28-2007, 09:38 AM	#11
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	So withing 22 months of the crucifixion, Christians had dropped from their creed any mention of a bodily Jesus being touched and walking the Earth? The converts to Jesus-worship (who Paul praises to the skies in 1 Corinthians 1), scoffed at the idea that God would choose to raise a corpse. Paul's response is to tell them that Jesus became a life-giving spirit. I think your professor could learn something from these Jesus-worshippers who Paul said had been enriched in speech and knowedge of every kind.

02-28-2007, 10:36 AM	#16
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Thanks for the link! Interpolation... that would raise my prof's bloodpressure.

02-28-2007, 11:01 AM	#18
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	What a co-wink-a-dink... this is the same question I started this thread about. Can these threads be combined?

02-28-2007, 11:05 AM	#19
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Is the book Lee Strobel's "The Case For Christ" by any chance?

02-28-2007, 11:24 AM	#20
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	One review I found claimed that Strobel spent exactly 22 months researching this. Perhaps there was a bit of confusion in this professsor's memory?

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