mknomad5

Re the PoE and Gnosticism; I had thought I’d found a religious system which encompasses what I feel must be true Re God and/or the creator. I have yet, though, to discover if and how Gnosticism attempts to reconcile the POE.

The question is two part:
1. How does Gnosticism deal with the POE, where:
The “Alien God�? is the proposed entity “above�? the Demiurge (renegade/evil creator), such that:

A. According to Gnosticism, is the Alien God the more or less powerful of the two?
B. If the Alien God is the more powerful, why does it allow the Demiurge to exist and create?

2. Assuming that the Alien God is somehow “reachable�? and caring, but either not powerful enough to depose the Demiurge (seems most logical to me - a benevolent Alien God would not destroy anything, including the Demiurge, and therefore, if powerful enough, would have had to prevent the Demiurge from ever existing), or unwilling to do so at this time or for some other reason; What are people’s feelings as to how this knowledge could change our understanding or our existential standing, if at all, and if so, what might change in how we frame our cognizance of our existence?

Lilyofthevalley

I think most Christians ARE gnostics. Their Jesus is someone floating around in a human body but in no way a human. I think gnosticism is alive and well and not an ancient, long-lost fad.

Max Lucado could be a good example of a modern day gnostic. He says Jesus didn't live life day to day like us. According to Lucado Jesus never knew anxiety - or fear - or guilt.

What a life...

quasi-sapien

Almost a billion Catholics believe that Christ is "true God and true man". ( that would be a very solid majority of Christians )

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm

JesusLovesYou

Since He sweat drops of blood while praying in the garden, i don't see how that could be true.

NearNihil Experience

One thing about Christian Gnostic belief is that "Things are always as they should be." The idea that Primal Force of Wisdom could have or should have done something to prevent the Demiurge (Yawaeh) from being created or deposing it is backward from Gnostic thinking. There is no struggle in Heaven, only within you.

I have always thought of the Gnostic origin as "From Wisdom comes power...but what is power seperated from Wisdom but destruction." Hense our trapped state of material being and the "evil" nature of the material universe. We have been trapped in material form by the Demiurge in its arrogonce and seperation from its true origin in Wisdom. Only through the hidden knowledge Christ and other great spiritual men of the world do we gain the knowledge to escape our mortal coil and be reunited with the true peace of Wisdom and cirrcumvent the power the Demiurge holds over us.

How this deals with the PoE...I would say, it sort of redefines it as not a problem, just a veil of ignorance to be seen through, something to be overcome. Descarte's "Evil Demon" or the "Matrix" who is fooling us all the time, lets say.

As far as changing our consciousness...I guess it really empahsizes the "things are as they should be". Struggle against worldly ideas and states is futile. Betterment rests in understanding and having a radical acceptance of the place and situation you find yourself in. Whether you are powerful or not in the world, you are still seperate from true Wisdom and Peace. Those that revel in the worldly filth of war and hate and desire will become farther and farther removed from being at peace as they struggle to have and keep more and more that they really can't own (the Demiurge owns all materials) and really can't keep (when you die, you can't take it with you), and worldly pleasures are fleeting.

I guess the Gnostic ideas creates a conscious of searching and humbleness...and some denial of the fun stuff.

Thats my 2 little cents anyway.

mknomad5

There is no struggle in heaven because:
A. The Alien God is unconcerned that the Demiurge uses power outside of wisdom, therefore creating destruction, or
B. It is not within the Alien God’s nature to “struggle�?, therefore, on principle, he cannot interfere with what the Demiurge…

Or is there another reason? I’m not being snarky; I really want to know.

On one hand it seems like you’re defending the “evil does not exist�? argument…
If the Alien God for some reason does not depose the Demiurge, what is the reason? Where do Christ, etc., come from to enlighten us to our predicament? From the Alien God? If so, how is it that the Alien God can inject these agents into the universe, yet will not depose the Demiurge, unless he is just not powerful enough? So it’s ok to interfere, but not to prevent the unwise usage of such power?

Thanks for your input.

NearNihil Experience

Its not that evil does not exist as a concept. But "evil" as a term denotes a problem, flaw, something that needs reversed or stopped. Its not that it doesn't exist, its that it doesn't exist apart from its opposite....good. And since opposites annihilate each other, there really is no good or evil.


As for the other questions concerning the Demiurge, I will say that that is mythos and that I honestly have to read up on it to tell you. But there are plenty of books about Gnosticism, early and late, in the libraries.Start wih their peculiar creation story. Makes Genesis look like a childs story.

mknomad5

First of all, I put no credit to the idea that evil does not exist, in fact, or that it is a relativistic concept. I don't see any reason to split hairs. What is, is, and it's absolutely clear as day, if we don't devolve into the semantics of what is meant by the word 'evil'. However you slice it or define it, it exists to be eventually transcended. And IMO, I don't think that good and evil finally do a 'melting pot' thing and cancel each other out. Regardless, thanks for the input and, er, admonishment to patronize the library.

That said, here are some thoughts:
I believe the physical world is ‘bad’, per se, and I do not think this is a ‘pessimistic’ viewpoint.
Considering the origins of the universe tells me this. The universe is ‘tainted’ on the whole, from the beginning; everything here is tainted by ego, evil. It’s part and parcel of every atom, every super string, because it is part of the very will and being of the Demiurge. It has been an actual physical parameter in everything from day one. The Demiurge is not capable of creating a pure physical existence.
This is not pessimistic, because, knowing this is the first step in forging a path which seeks the way to the Alien God. There is no salvation to be had in the Demiurge or in any of his constructs, except where they intersect with any influence of the Alien God in this universe. Those intersections, however, presuming they exist (ex. Christ), may be thought of as oases within the universe, and even perhaps part of it; but since they come essentially from ‘outside’, are not to be considered ‘this universe’ proper, and part of the original design.
Reveling in the carnal aspect is to miss the point of Gnosis; in fact it is evidence of the Demiurge’s influence, and represents ongoing collusion with the Demiurge. And that is exactly what he wants. Further, if one is satisfied with this universe, the Gnosis ‘spark’ has not been ‘fanned’ to the degree necessary to create the awareness of the opportunity to evolve to the next level, back to the Alien God.

mknomad5

How do atheists contend with Gnostics, who do not claim God is omnimax? I wonder if any here who love to refute an omnimax God are willing to elucidate upon the ramifications from there.

Lilyofthevalley

JesusLovesYou, I agree on that point. I DON'T agree with Christians who claim that Jesus never knew the day-to-day fears and anxieties and temptations that we do.

My point is that in PRACTICE I think Christians act as if Jesus isn't really human, even if doctrinally he is supposed to be both divine and human. I think this fact is a fundamental flaw in the Christian story because having a not-human person as the protagonist almost completely ruins the story.

Anyway, having just made that point, I'll shut up because I realise that of course I'm arguing against Docetism and not Gnosticism. :thumbs: