Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TedM · 08-20-2012, 05:48 AM

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Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by Toto

I find the premise hard to take seriously, but people under the sway of a religious leader believe strange things, and do strange things.

I don't know how anyone could find the premise hard to take seriously. Even Earl D. It's not at all hard to imagine that a preacher with a following was crucified for offending someone. Is that part hard for you to take seriously?

Yes it is. Crucifixion was the punishment for slaves who rebelled, or military leaders of the opposition, or important political opponents, where the government needed to make a political statement. or let a lot of other people know what might happen to them. A wandering preacher would have to do something much more serious than just offending someone to make it worth the while of the governor to bother with crucifixion.

Even John the Baptist was just beheaded. Probably a lot of other unimportant annoying people were just executed or banished.

Ok. I've always thought sedition was enough. IF that was, then replace 'offending someone' with 'committed sedition'. Then you can proceed.

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If they thought that he might be the Messiah, they would have thought differently after he was crucified. At that point, they would know that they were wrong.

And maybe they did feel they were wrong. But IF they LOVED him, they likely would not have suddenly lost that love. People in mourning an often see what they want to see if there is some basis (Suffering Servant).

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And - if the followers of Jesus could mine the Hebrew Scriptures for references to the Messiah and fit them onto a mere crucified preacher, why would they even need the preacher? They could have mined the Scriptures to create the crucified wisdom teacher, their substitute for the would be Messiahs who failed them in the Jewish Wars.

Why create such a teacher when you have just followed one that seems to fit the bill? The implied criteria is that he was considered 'wise' by his followers. Add to it the criteria that he was crucified during Passover and you have a strong case for the Suffering Servant -- who died for the sins of the people, a sacrifice.

TedM · 08-20-2012, 05:52 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

It would be Expected that People who claimed Jesus was the Messiah and was STILL ALIVE would have been EXECUTED or would be hunted down.

What is your basis for such a claim? How do you know what the Romans would have done? Why kill a bunch of people for what they would have considered to be a 'silly superstition' if those people were not threatening to take over the Roman empire (note Paul's relatively friendly stance toward Romans).

Duvduv · 08-20-2012, 05:59 AM

And considering that AA disapproves of speculation, preferring only data from ancient sources it is rather amazing that he would make such a statement. After all, he comes down hard on any speculation and inferences suggested by others.

Horatio Parker · 08-20-2012, 07:52 AM

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Originally Posted by Minimalist

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Because he represents an eternal truth.

And that would be what?

Whatever believers assign to him.

But very broadly, I'd say it's the idea that society or humankind is an entity larger than the individual.

Toto · 08-20-2012, 08:28 AM

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Originally Posted by TedM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Yes it is. Crucifixion was the punishment for slaves who rebelled, or military leaders of the opposition, or important political opponents, where the government needed to make a political statement. or let a lot of other people know what might happen to them. A wandering preacher would have to do something much more serious than just offending someone to make it worth the while of the governor to bother with crucifixion.

Even John the Baptist was just beheaded. Probably a lot of other unimportant annoying people were just executed or banished.

Ok. I've always thought sedition was enough. IF that was, then replace 'offending someone' with 'committed sedition'. Then you can proceed.

Sedition? That doesn't sound like Jesus. If this hypothetical person had committed sedition, his followers would also have been killed or crucified.

It feels like you are grasping for straws to keep this going.

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And maybe they did feel they were wrong. But IF they LOVED him, they likely would not have suddenly lost that love. People in mourning an often see what they want to see if there is some basis (Suffering Servant).

He failed as a Messiah. You can't get around that.

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And - if the followers of Jesus could mine the Hebrew Scriptures for references to the Messiah and fit them onto a mere crucified preacher, why would they even need the preacher? They could have mined the Scriptures to create the crucified wisdom teacher, their substitute for the would be Messiahs who failed them in the Jewish Wars.

Why create such a teacher when you have just followed one that seems to fit the bill? The implied criteria is that he was considered 'wise' by his followers. Add to it the criteria that he was crucified during Passover and you have a strong case for the Suffering Servant -- who died for the sins of the people, a sacrifice.

It's all quite improbable. These surviving followers (improbable to start off with) might want to deify their slain leader, but who else would believe them? Why would they try to claim that he was the Messiah, when he clearly wasn't?

TedM · 08-20-2012, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Sedition? That doesn't sound like Jesus. If this hypothetical person had committed sedition, his followers would also have been killed or crucified.
It feels like you are grasping for straws to keep this going.

Perhaps that word implies too much. Jesus, if he were considered by some to the be King of the Jews, would have been considered a threat. Remember Luke 22:36:

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And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

His followers would have been killed or crucified had they mounted a credible threat, but there is no need to assume they did.

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And maybe they did feel they were wrong. But IF they LOVED him, they likely would not have suddenly lost that love. People in mourning an often see what they want to see if there is some basis (Suffering Servant).

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He failed as a Messiah. You can't get around that.

True. That's why it would require something other than a claim to be the Messiah. Something that distinguished him from Judas the Galilean and others..something like what I mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by Toto

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And - if the followers of Jesus could mine the Hebrew Scriptures for references to the Messiah and fit them onto a mere crucified preacher, why would they even need the preacher? They could have mined the Scriptures to create the crucified wisdom teacher, their substitute for the would be Messiahs who failed them in the Jewish Wars.

Why create such a teacher when you have just followed one that seems to fit the bill? The implied criteria is that he was considered 'wise' by his followers. Add to it the criteria that he was crucified during Passover and you have a strong case for the Suffering Servant -- who died for the sins of the people, a sacrifice.

It's all quite improbable. These surviving followers (improbable to start off with) might want to deify their slain leader, but who else would believe them? Why would they try to claim that he was the Messiah, when he clearly wasn't?

Because they were looking for a Messiah who appeared to fulfill scripture. Isaiah 53 was seen as Messiac. It's one of the most passionate chapters in the Bible, Toto, and would have been precious to Jews who were desperate for God's grace. Jesus could have easily been seen as the fulfilment--especially if he was seen as wise, loving, and if he had been crucified during Passover. The frequent quoting in early Christian works of parts of Isaiah 53 serves as support to what I'm saying: One could CREATE a Messiah from Isaiah 53 or one could see a similarity between a crucified preacher and Isaiah 53. If you see that simililarity, you have to also conclude that he had risen--the circular PROOF that he was the Messiah! Jesus would have talked about salvation from sins--if he had been a JTB devotee, which I believe he was. How EASY it would have been for early followers in mourning to have seen Jesus as being the Suffering Servant who must have been resurrected.

To me it is obvious that this is not at all improbable. It's not complicated either. Jesus himself could have decided he was to become the Suffering Servant too.

aa5874 · 08-20-2012, 09:20 AM

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Originally Posted by TedM

...What is your basis for such a claim? How do you know what the Romans would have done? Why kill a bunch of people for what they would have considered to be a 'silly superstition' if those people were not threatening to take over the Roman empire (note Paul's relatively friendly stance toward Romans).

Why was Jesus killed for a "silly" superstition in the very NT???

Why did Judas betray Jesus for a "silly" superstition in the Canon??

Why did the disciples in the NT FLEE from the Scene when Jesus was arrested for his "silly" superstition???

Why did Peter DENY that he ever knew Jesus in the NT???

Jesus did NOT threaten to take over the Roman Empire in the NT.

In the NT, Jesus was considered a agent of BEELZEBUB or an agent of the Devil.

Now, is it NOT claimed PILATE KILLED CHRISTUS for the NEW Mischievous and Evil SUPERSTITION that arose in Judea???

Tacitus Annals 15.44

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Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular....

Please, the Pauline writings and Acts of the Apostles do NOT make any sense at all if Jesus was EXECUTED for a NEW EVIL MISCHIEVOUS Superstition.

Based on Annals, it is just total nonsense that the disciples and Paul were still able to PREACH the same NEW EVIL MISCHIEVOUS Superstition "all over" the ROMAN EMPIRE when Tiberius was STILL EMPEROR immediately AFTER Jesus was EXECUTED.

No Robots · 08-20-2012, 09:28 AM

Christ made such an impact by the force of his personality that after his death his followers continued to experience him as if he were present.

TedM · 08-20-2012, 09:32 AM

The 'silly superstition' that I'm referring to is that Jesus rose from the dead, so your entire post seems a bit off-point. Take a deep breath aa...I'm curious--do you believe in an after life? If not, why do you get so worked up here about things that really don't matter? If when we die it is all finished, none of this stuff is worth getting so worked up about. No offense intended--I just don't understand your passion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

...What is your basis for such a claim? How do you know what the Romans would have done? Why kill a bunch of people for what they would have considered to be a 'silly superstition' if those people were not threatening to take over the Roman empire (note Paul's relatively friendly stance toward Romans).

Why was Jesus killed for a "silly" superstition in the very NT???

Why did Judas betray Jesus for a "silly" superstition in the Canon??

Why did the disciples in the NT FLEE from the Scene when Jesus was arrested for his "silly" superstition???

Why did Peter DENY that he ever knew Jesus in the NT???

Jesus did NOT threaten to take over the Roman Empire in the NT.

In the NT, Jesus was considered a agent of BEELZEBUB or an agent of the Devil.

Now, is it NOT claimed PILATE KILLED CHRISTUS for the NEW Mischievous and Evil SUPERSTITION that arose in Judea???

Tacitus Annals 15.44

Quote:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular....

Please, the Pauline writings and Acts of the Apostles do NOT make any sense at all if Jesus was EXECUTED for a NEW EVIL MISCHIEVOUS Superstition.

Based on Annals, it is just total nonsense that the disciples and Paul were still able to PREACH the same NEW EVIL MISCHIEVOUS Superstition "all over" the ROMAN EMPIRE when Tiberius was STILL EMPEROR immediately AFTER Jesus was EXECUTED.

outhouse · 08-20-2012, 09:36 AM

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Sedition? That doesn't sound like Jesus. If this hypothetical person had committed sedition, his followers would also have been killed or crucified.

Not true

Sedition was his crime. passover was a huge payday for romans and the Saducees, Pilate and Caiaphas only wanted peace to keep the money flowing.

along comes this poverty stricken peasant, who tries to start a riot. You dont send in guards or do anything to incite the riot, you let it calm down and go in at night and pluck the leader out and set a example, just the way we see it. this keeps the money flowing

romans as you stated cut JtB head off, but didnt go after his followers did they?? they were known for setting examples by killing leaders.

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08-20-2012, 05:59 AM	#43
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	And considering that AA disapproves of speculation, preferring only data from ancient sources it is rather amazing that he would make such a statement. After all, he comes down hard on any speculation and inferences suggested by others.

08-20-2012, 09:28 AM	#48
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Christ made such an impact by the force of his personality that after his death his followers continued to experience him as if he were present.

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