FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-22-2012, 02:50 AM   #101
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bordeaux France
Posts: 2,796
Default

Mark - bi-lingual Aramaic/Greek interpreter; persecuted Gentile community; late 60's (Rome? later Alexandria?)

Matthew - Jewish-Christian scribe; educated community arguing with other Jews; 70's-80's (Galilee? Antioch?)

Luke - Gentile Christian historian; wealthier urban community becoming complacent; 80's (Antioch? Greece?)

John - Jewish Christian believers, in conflict with the "synagogue across the street"; 90's (Syria? later Ephesus?)

Found in a catho jesuit site. I think that the dates are too early.

Another quote :

Heinrich Bacht (1910-1986), Professor für Fundamentaltheologie an der Philosophisch-Theologischen Hochschule Frankfurt am Main :

Mark supposedly gives us a gentile-friendly story, Matthew plays up the Jewish angle, Luke is focused on post-apocalyptic catholicism and John is a co-opted gnostic.
Huon is offline  
Old 09-22-2012, 03:52 AM   #102
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huon View Post
Alfred Loisy (1857-1940) was excommunicated vitandus in 1908 by Pius X, which means that all catholics were forbidden to speak to him
Are these the books ?


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/loisy2/index.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/loisy/
Iskander is offline  
Old 09-22-2012, 04:11 AM   #103
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 3,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotto voce View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huon View Post
Duvduv, you could be interested by two books of Alfred Loisy
Or perhaps not. Joe Sarto found him a right turn-off.

Quote:
The birth of the Christian religion
Ah, when it comes.

Un autre Catholique:
The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried. GK Chesterton
Loisy lui-même:
Jesus came preaching the Kingdom, and what arrived was the Church.
So much for 'the Vicar of Christ'.
Alfred Loisy (1857-1940) was excommunicated vitandus in 1908 by Pius X, which means that all catholics were forbidden to speak to him. Being a good catholic, sotto voce applies this law.
sotto voce peut communiquer avec les morts? Loisy est défunt, Huon.

Though, like M. Sarto, he would be reluctant to talk to sv, I'm sure. Because Loisy was one of the early exponents of double talk. We had a special case of this recently, with Martini, who lambasted his own religion with fatal truth, yet still remaining part of it, even though on a death-bed of pomp and pretension. Martini ducked the interview, too.

It's Satan's Dilemma. If it is taken, pro tem., that he exists, Satan would prefer atheism. Of course; keep things simple. But the NT can make atheism look like wishful thinking. So the next best thing is Catholicism. Get the believers under the thumb of a pious pagan who tells them that Jesus didn't actually finish dying. Make them attend Mass and Confession, make them psychologically dependent and easily malleable. But who can believe in apostolic succession, in an informed world, and transubstantiation, in a scientific world, and Confession, in a democratic world? So it's back to atheism. Flip, flop. Flip, flop. All things to all men.

Who decided on the NT canon? Nobody did. Nobody ever has done. There is no authority to decide, and there never has been one. Some want to think so. Some want us to think so. Especially people who call themselves 'Pius', and 'Benedict'. Droll fellows, every one.

Who decided on the NT canon? Nobody did. Except you, dear reader, whoever you are. Chalk and cheese, eh? Because the NT can make atheism look like wishful thinking.
sotto voce is offline  
Old 09-22-2012, 04:28 AM   #104
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,387
Default

It was the World Health Organization. They decided on the Christian Canon. To eradicate smallpox for great justice.
Duke Leto is offline  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:26 AM   #105
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bordeaux France
Posts: 2,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskander View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huon View Post
Alfred Loisy (1857-1940) was excommunicated vitandus in 1908 by Pius X, which means that all catholics were forbidden to speak to him
Are these the books ?


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/loisy2/index.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/loisy/
Yes,these are the english translations.
Huon is offline  
Old 09-22-2012, 08:33 AM   #106
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bordeaux France
Posts: 2,796
Default The four gospels

Here is another explanation, found at newadvent :
Gospel and Gospels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newadvent
The saintly Bishop of Lyons, Irenæus (died 202), who had known Polycarp in Asia Minor, not only admits and quotes our four Gospels, but argues that they must be just four, no more and no less. He says: "It is not possible that the Gospels be either more or fewer than they are. For since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout the world, and the pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the Spirit of life; it is fitting that we should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side and vivifying our flesh. . . The living creatures are quadriform, and the Gospel is quadriform, as is also the course followed by the Lord" (Adv. Hær., III, xi, 8).
The explanation given by Irenæus is a mix of one good reason, and many other arguments, which have been added to enforce the paragraph.

Indeed, there are four important patriarchates, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem, around 200 CE. Constantinople was made a patriarchate in 381. The title "patriarchate" is also relatively recent.
Huon is offline  
Old 09-22-2012, 09:22 AM   #107
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 3,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huon View Post
Here is another explanation, found at newadvent :
Gospel and Gospels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newadvent
The saintly Bishop of Lyons, Irenæus (died 202), who had known Polycarp in Asia Minor, not only admits and quotes our four Gospels, but argues that they must be just four, no more and no less. He says: "It is not possible that the Gospels be either more or fewer than they are. For since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout the world, and the pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the Spirit of life; it is fitting that we should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side and vivifying our flesh. . . The living creatures are quadriform, and the Gospel is quadriform, as is also the course followed by the Lord" (Adv. Hær., III, xi, 8).
The explanation given by Irenæus is a mix of one good reason, and many other arguments, which have been added to enforce the paragraph.

Indeed, there are four important patriarchates, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem, around 200 CE. Constantinople was made a patriarchate in 381. The title "patriarchate" is also relatively recent.
Bugs Bunny is more entertaining.
sotto voce is offline  
Old 09-22-2012, 06:53 PM   #108
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 393
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huon View Post
Mark - bi-lingual Aramaic/Greek interpreter; persecuted Gentile community; late 60's (Rome? later Alexandria?)

Matthew - Jewish-Christian scribe; educated community arguing with other Jews; 70's-80's (Galilee? Antioch?)

Luke - Gentile Christian historian; wealthier urban community becoming complacent; 80's (Antioch? Greece?)

John - Jewish Christian believers, in conflict with the "synagogue across the street"; 90's (Syria? later Ephesus?)

Found in a catho jesuit site. I think that the dates are too early.

Another quote :

Heinrich Bacht (1910-1986), Professor für Fundamentaltheologie an der Philosophisch-Theologischen Hochschule Frankfurt am Main :

Mark supposedly gives us a gentile-friendly story, Matthew plays up the Jewish angle, Luke is focused on post-apocalyptic catholicism and John is a co-opted gnostic.
They are in fact all "gentile-friendly" gospels -- written by and for Gentile audiences far removed from the hills of Judea. "The Jews" are simply cartoon characters, only in the story to be Jesus's foil, leading to the denoument of the crucifixion, and the ultimate "I told you so" moment when Jesus reappears after death. Matthew is not Jewish. He just has a better knowledge of contemporary Judaism, and is a more careful writer, than Mark.
James The Least is offline  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:01 PM   #109
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 3,057
Default

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned Bugs Bunny.
sotto voce is offline  
Old 09-22-2012, 09:18 PM   #110
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Auburn ca
Posts: 4,269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James The Least View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huon View Post
Mark - bi-lingual Aramaic/Greek interpreter; persecuted Gentile community; late 60's (Rome? later Alexandria?)

Matthew - Jewish-Christian scribe; educated community arguing with other Jews; 70's-80's (Galilee? Antioch?)

Luke - Gentile Christian historian; wealthier urban community becoming complacent; 80's (Antioch? Greece?)

John - Jewish Christian believers, in conflict with the "synagogue across the street"; 90's (Syria? later Ephesus?)

Found in a catho jesuit site. I think that the dates are too early.

Another quote :

Heinrich Bacht (1910-1986), Professor für Fundamentaltheologie an der Philosophisch-Theologischen Hochschule Frankfurt am Main :

Mark supposedly gives us a gentile-friendly story, Matthew plays up the Jewish angle, Luke is focused on post-apocalyptic catholicism and John is a co-opted gnostic.
They are in fact all "gentile-friendly" gospels -- written by and for Gentile audiences far removed from the hills of Judea. "The Jews" are simply cartoon characters, only in the story to be Jesus's foil, leading to the denoument of the crucifixion, and the ultimate "I told you so" moment when Jesus reappears after death. Matthew is not Jewish. He just has a better knowledge of contemporary Judaism, and is a more careful writer, than Mark.


now that I agree with you on.

he was using the roman core of Gmark so you know he was not a strict jew in any sense.


and we know that god-fearers had different degrees of how much judaism they held on to, which changed from one geographic location to the next
outhouse is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:48 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.