Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 02-17-2006, 10:48 AM

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Originally Posted by No Robots

If we go down this road with regard to the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions, we cannot avoid the question of antisemitism. Was it wrong for the Jews to live apart as a nation within a nation?

No it wasn't and still is not wrong for them to do so. I think Catholicism has an eternal bond with Judaism as "grafted branches" because we share the same genesis.

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Was it wrong for Church and government to force them to choose between conversion and exile?

It seems wrong but I am not the head of state to speak on such matters. Freedom of religion is not always a civil right but that is where my opinion ends.

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Was it wrong to suspect conversos of insincerity?

No it is not wrong because the Inquisition was to prevent "wolves in sheeps clothing" to devour the flock and that same protection was extended to our Jewish comrades (for lack of a better word) who were also their targets.

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Here is what Spinoza, a descendant of those who were targets of the Inquisition, has to say:

That they [Jews] have been preserved in great measure by Gentile hatred, experience demonstrates. When the king of Spain formerly compelled the Jews to embrace the State religion or to go into exile, a large number of Jews accepted Catholicism. Now, as these renegades were admitted to all the native privileges of Spaniards, and deemed worthy of filling all honourable offices, it came to pass that they straightway became so intermingled with the Spaniards as to leave of themselves no relic or remembrance. But exactly the opposite happened to those whom the king of Portugal compelled to become Christians, for they always, though converted, lived apart, inasmuch as they were considered unworthy of any civic honours.

Spinoza. TTP. Bk 1, chap. 3

He is saying that if the government opts for coercive measures against Jews, it should grant them full rights if they comply with those measures. He is silent on the wisdom of the measures. The overall point is that Judaism in its outer manifestations would disappear if it were not an object of hatred. It is a vicious cycle: hatred arises from separation, separation arises from hatred. I hope that we will someday see the last of this.

There is a difference between becoming Catholic and becoming Christian because Catholics are not Christian. It is the wolf in sheeps clothing who leads both Catholics and Jews into the promised land where they do not belong before Gods own time and it is against this heresy that the Inquisition was fought. These would be the [self proclaimed] Christian that got born-again by carnal desire instead of God as per Jn.1:13.

Toto · 02-17-2006, 12:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Reena

My Catholic friend often says that the Inquisition the Church conducted was really very mild when compared to what the secular authorities were doing. He also claims that in fact comparatively few people were killed/hurt by the Church's Inquisition.

Do any of you know much about Inquistion? Are there good sources on it? (I have heard that the Church keeps the records somewhat secret.)

I would like to know how violent it was, what they stood for, what they did, whether they really tortured people, wether they were officially supported by the Church etc.

Is your friend's name on the internet Bede?

This is a form of historical revisionism that some Catholics engage in. I'm dubious about the entire enterprise.

It may be that some Protestant opponents of Catholicism exaggerated the numbers killed. It may be that non-church criminal punishments at that time were a bit rough by modern standards.

But none of this absolves the Church. The very idea of using torture in any amount or threats of any sort to change people's beliefs is still repugnant and should be rejected by all modern civilized people.

fta · 02-17-2006, 03:40 PM

The historian H.C. Lea wrote several works on the Inquisition, one of which -- the four-volume History of the Inquisition in Spain (1906-7) -- is online. I'm not sure what Lea's own religious beliefs were or whether his research is considered out-of-date today.

Toto · 02-17-2006, 04:08 PM

Wikipedia on The Spanish Inquisition contains some resources.

The revisionist case is presented here.

Chili · 02-17-2006, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

If we go down this road with regard to the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions, we cannot avoid the question of antisemitism.

Btw, Spinoza is my friend and I think that he was censored by his own.

Chili · 02-17-2006, 05:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

But none of this absolves the Church. The very idea of using torture in any amount or threats of any sort to change people's beliefs is still repugnant and should be rejected by all modern civilized people.

The Church doesn't need to be absolved because it was their wish for not willing to play by the rules. Heretics had a choice to make which was either to play by the rules or shut up about religion, but, instead, they insisted on perverting the national religion. They could refuse religion but not pervert the national religion and that is what the Inquisitor was all about who needed the insight of the Church to make this judgement.

Jews cannot do this as Jew in the same way as Catholics cannot do this as Catholic. IOW, so called Christianity was the curse.

countjulian · 02-17-2006, 06:00 PM

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The Church doesn't need to be absolved because it was their wish for not willing to play by the rules. Heretics had a choice to make which was either to play by the rules or shut up about religion, but, instead, they insisted on perverting the national religion. They could refuse religion but not pervert the national religion and that is what the Inquisitor was all about who needed the insight of the Church to make this judgement.

So the heretics deserved the Judas chair and being burned at the stake?

What if scientology was declared the nation's "national religion" tomorrow, and you had to "shut up" about religion or face the death penalty?

Come to think of it, isn;t that suppossed to be the situation those brave Christian martyrs faced in the evil pre-Constantinian pagan world?

Chili · 02-17-2006, 07:03 PM

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Originally Posted by countjulian

So the heretics deserved the Judas chair and being burned at the stake?

I think it was their choice.

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What if scientology was declared the nation's "national religion" tomorrow, and you had to "shut up" about religion or face the death penalty?

If that would be the law of the land, YES.

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Come to think of it, isn;t that suppossed to be the situation those brave Christian martyrs faced in the evil pre-Constantinian pagan world?

I am not familiar with that. My argument is limited to the law of the land that is based on the rules of the game.

No Robots · 02-17-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Btw, Spinoza is my friend and I think that he was censored by his own.

Spinoza's statements about the Inquisition come from the TTP which was published during his lifetime, so there is no question of censorship or adulteration of his views.

madmax2976 · 02-17-2006, 08:56 PM

I think the interesting thing about the whole issue is the all the tortures and burnings were conducted by theists, predominantly Christians - who believed their actions were morally correct and appropriate. Whether the acts were carried out by church officials doesn't seem all that important.

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02-17-2006, 03:40 PM	#23
fta Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Oceania Posts: 334	The historian H.C. Lea wrote several works on the Inquisition, one of which -- the four-volume History of the Inquisition in Spain (1906-7) -- is online. I'm not sure what Lea's own religious beliefs were or whether his research is considered out-of-date today.

02-17-2006, 04:08 PM	#24
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Wikipedia on The Spanish Inquisition contains some resources. The revisionist case is presented here.

02-17-2006, 08:56 PM	#30
madmax2976 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: OK Posts: 1,806	I think the interesting thing about the whole issue is the all the tortures and burnings were conducted by theists, predominantly Christians - who believed their actions were morally correct and appropriate. Whether the acts were carried out by church officials doesn't seem all that important.

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