Helo

Your basis for that is that the pottery didnt change?

Is false, I never claimed that slaves were able to crush Egypt itself. I said that a group of slaves with battle experience were able to defeat an Egyptian Pharoah and his army.

I never claimed there was any parting of any water, the Sea of Reeds is a marshland. The parting is a probable reference to the marshlands between the northern end of the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. The Sea Of Reeds is a direct translation from the Hebrew text.

Without pointing fingers, I'd like to see some academic sources that arent based on an athiest website.

FatherMithras

Strawman. My basis is that nothing indicates a change, specifically everything that indicates culture, ie pottery, art, archaelogy, etc. Regardless, an alien, Egypt influenced nation SHOULD have had vastly different pottery. Pottery alone not changing is a huge deal.

with no support for it. I meant to put Egyptian army.

I know. the problem is, according to the story, the water parted and then swallowed up the army. If it didn't do this, the story has no basis and there's nothing interesting about it. Saying "They walked across a dry march" is nothing close to "the walked across a split in the ocean that swallowed their enemies"

Go read it. It mentions a TON of cited sources, which is why I linked to it. My ancient history teacher who's A Christian never seemed to have any problems with it!
(Lemche 1992, p. 6)
(Finkelstein and Silberman 2001, p. 103).
(Lemche 1992, p. 7)
(Dever 1992, p. 546).
For starters^^^

The likelihood is that the Hebrews, a people who'd always lived in their local area, borrowed and changed the story of the Hyksos. We have evidence of a Hyksos exodus, but not a Jewish one.

Also seems to indicate a different story than you mentioned.

FatherMithras

On a side note, I want to apologize to Helo for being a bit of a dick recently. Alot of stress over here, and I'm sorry I've let it et to me.

Helo

Its unlikely that nomadic people would have made pottery, as moving around alot is not good for pottery. They would have most likely used bowls and cups made from bone.

A tidal marsh leaves mud behind that is nearly impossible to get chariots through. The mud trapping the chariot wheels and the horse's legs.

Unless it was meant in a metaphorical sense

Why would they COMPLETELY fabricate a story?

Dont sweat it, Im used to it

FatherMithras

I was referring to when they'd settled the lands they claimed to have conquered. Also, there is absolutely zero evidence they left behind in the desert that they were there. A bit odd as we've been able to track a hundred or so people's wanderings.

Good point! But to think the Egyptians would try seems a bit...unlikely. However, I have to concede it's possible.

Taking it metaphorically ruins the whole point. It's supposed to show them how they got to their homelands. If it's metaphor, the story falls apart.

I didn't mean to say they did. It's cultural borrowing, like how the hebrews took the flood story.

Helo

Through thier own oral history mostly

Never underestimate the human capacity for a mistake. Look at the gladiator revolt of Spartacus. The Romans sent two legions against him and he crushed them both. Because Moses and the Hebrews were basically slaves, Pharoah probably thought "Theyre just slaves, a few hundred chariots will cut them down." Pharoah quickly found himself in a piss-poor military position and got his ass kicked.

Its more likely that many of the bible's writers wrote metaphorically because it was very uncommon at that time to write litterally. Even historians speak about armies so numerous that the Earth cracks beneath thier feet. They didnt litterally crack the earth, but the weight of a huge army could put stress-cracks in some kinds of rock or packed earth.

But why? What would they gain from borrowing a story from annother culture?

FatherMithras

I didn't mean it was deliberate. But honestly, study history in depth. Take a look at mythology from some of the greats. It's incredibly common for borrowing to occur. It happened witht he flood story, and alot of sumerian mythos, as can be demonstrated by an analysis of Job.

Yes, but we have no evidence that it's been handed down since the "Event". We do know however, there was a somewhat similar "exodus" with the Hyksos. We know the two cultures met each other. We know for a fact that the Jews developed in the Middle East, not Egypt, due to their writing being Sumerian based. Archaelogists have said it'd be easy to track the jews in the desert due to the small small amount of erosion. And yet we have not a single piece of evidence. The story fails the burden of proof.

Absolutely right. It's a definate possibility. But in the absence of any evidence for it occuring, besides a story likely adapted from another group, it's really not the best idea to take it as true.

You're confusing issues here. The ancient mind turned to much when it came to numbers, and in some cases yes it was used as you describe. But more generally what occured is they mythicized the past in order to make it more meaningful. They believed these incredible events occured. They believed God made mana, created the earth in a week, the tower of Babel, etc.

DaMan121

It worked for Christianity - millions of people dont know they are celebrating Pagan gods during Easter and XMas.

Doug Shaver

Why?

Helo

As a side question, how do you explain two cultures that have never had contact with eachother having the same (or roughly so) mythology?

You just contradicted yourself, the Hyksos were a Semite people. And yet you say there were no Jews in Egypt.

Im also curious as to your explanation of the Habiru (Whom we know to have existed) simply dropping off the radar about 1200 BC which would roughly square with traditional stories of the Hebrew enslavement.

Keep in mind I do NOT advance the bible as truth, Im saying the Exodus did happen, just in a VERY different form than was given in the bible.

The problem is that the Hyksos invaded and took over Egypt, the stories of the Hebrews were that they left and established thier own lands. There is also almost no mention of the Hyksos before about the Fourteenth Dynasty. The Hyksos also never squared off with Pharoah, so far as we know.

The Hyksos Exodus appears to have been a reverse of the Hebrew Exodus. The Hebrews were LEAVING, the Hyksos were COMMING. The Hyksos actually ruled Egypt for about a hundred years, the Hebrews never held any positions of power.

Again, people didnt write litterally as we know it in the ancient world. People wrote in metaphors, its reasonable to assume the writers of the bible did the same.

The kidnapping of Easter and Christmas was to convert native pagans without the use of force.

Read Aesop's Fables. There are some very interesting similarities between the bible and Aesop's Fables.