Gwen

So, Sheshbazzar, why are you rejecting the Holy Scriptures and the counsels of Most High and the fellowship of the saints and His words and the testimony of fellow believers?
I mean, surely your version of the Bible has all the same "God is a baby-killer!", "God supports virgin-rape!", "God created evil!", "God is going to wipe out most of the people on Earth through a variety of tortures including war, pestilence, famine, stars falling from the sky and the sea boiling with blood" verses mine does. And the stories where God comes off looking worse than Satan way outnumber the "I'm compassionate! Really! Believe me or burn in Hell for all eternity!" verses. I mean, God created evil. No suffering happens, no one dies, no one is raped, nothing unless God wills it.
Who you gonna believe, your pastor...or the Bible?

Dave Reed

Sorry, here's the proper "quote" format.

Yes, self control is SUPPOSED to be a characteristic of the Christian, but I
can safely say this doesn't always apply. It would be wonderful if everyone
displayed it.

You hate faith?!?! I think you mean you hate some of the goofy beliefs of
other religions. It's impossible to function without some faith. If you had
none, you couldn't even turn out the light, without wondering if the floor
remained in tact, so you wouldn't fall through.:devil1:

Sheshbazzar

Gwen, I have been an almost daily reader of this board since 2004, the accusations that you are tendering, I have already heard many thousands of times before.
Your worldly way of reasoning, and of writing, remains utterly unconvincing to me, and to the questions you have posed, I have long since found such answers
as are sufficient to the maintaining of my own faith and convictions, and to strengthen the hope, and the faith, and the joy of my friends.

Really, your scornfulness and impiety do nothing at all to make your position any more attractive or convincing. I certainly would not enjoy having you for a "friend", one holding out no hope, no peace, no joy, with no words of comfort, nor of compassion, nor having any consolation to offer, but only a great big bunch of sour grapes.
You appear to me, to be a most pityful person.
I will spare out a few moments from my joy, to morn and pray for your sad and pathetic condition.

Fayzal Mahamed

Here on earth, humans are always taught that the death / murder of an innocent child is wrong, no matter what the circumstances. It is on this basis that we would condemn for eg. a Muslim Jihadist blowing up a busload of innocent Jewish kids. More importantly the cause does not justify the crime.

Are we to pretend that in the case of God he is exempt from human justice without any good reason?

Fayzal.

Simen

"Here on earth" implies that this is the case in all cultures. That's not the case. Why do you think the Muslim terrorist has the idea that killing innocent children is justified? Did he think it up all by himself, or does he have it from his community where others will repeat and reaffirm this notion?

Godless Dave

That's not faith, that's experience.

Angra Mainyu

Before I reply, I have to clarify I'm not a theist, but I'm assuming that that God exists for the sake of the argument.

Now, to the matter at hand:

If people live forever, what's the big deal if they move from one dimension to another a few years earlier or later?

In other words, if you believe in eternal life (if not, please clarify ), then those children will never actually die – their mind will always exist.

So, I don't see the problem with physical death itself in this scenario. Pain, on the other hand, is a problem, and physical death itself can be a very traumatic experience.

But then again, if there's eternal life, it's not clear that physical death by flood at childhood would be particularly worse than physical death by, say, cancer at old age. It could be argued that God intentionally caused the Flood, so that's worse. But did He not created death as well? Adam's “sin” didn't cause that effect; God had to make a decision for that to happen. God can do anything, so He didn't have to make people die, did He?

In any event, would the fact that He caused death in one case (if He hadn't in the other, but He did), make it so much worse, or just marginally so?

I mean, what's the big difference if a person dies young and then is tortured for eternity, or if they die old and then they're tortured for eternity? And if children are not sent to Hell, then they got a (relatively speaking) “good” deal.

As for the children's suffering when they're dying, yes, that's on God's hands, but then again, His killings involve only limited pain. His torture, on the other hand, is everlasting.

So, what I'm trying to say is that, in my view, being killed by God isn't such a bad thing in a scenario in which the God of Hell exists. As I see it, the full extent of his evilness is only actualized in His capacity as the Ultimate Torturer.

Fayzal Mahamed

What I mean by here on earth is the "universal moral law" that all reasonable people and cultures adhere to and by this I mean the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. These rights form the basis of reasonable laws throughout the world immaterial of which religion or culture you subscribe to.

As for suggesting that ALL Muslims are a bunch of terrorist simply because some parts of the Quran or Hadith is interpreted to give support to terrorist is unacceptable. I think the majority of Muslims like the majority of Christians are peace loving people. Majority of Muslims will subscribe to the principals of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights except they will claim that the Islamic Sharia (laws) prescribe those very same UN universal laws.

To brush all Muslims as people intent on killing innocent children is not only untrue, it makes me questions if your motives are based on the vindictiveness against a religion?

Fayzal

Gwen

Translation:
"I've heard your argument before. I have a really good rebuttal, but I can't tell you what it is." (Probably either because "atheists are spiritually blind/closedminded and thus will reject it no matter what" or possibly because "I can't be bothered with spending my time wasting my clever arguments on you" or maybe because "God will show it to you in time".)

This is known as "the argument from hidden logic". It's used all the time by kids pretending either to be telepathic, like "I know what you're thinking, but I'm not going to tell you" or more knowledgeable about something, like "I know what the surprise is/what you're getting me for Christmas/&c., but I'm not going to tell you". It doesn't take a very smart kid to be skeptical of that claim.

Then comes the "you're a big poopiehead, and you're stupid and mean!" argument. When logical argument and rebuttal fail--or must remain hidden for mysterious reasons--argumentum ad hominem is always a good standby.

Unless, of course, you're past kindergarten. Or, I suppose, if you never went to kindergarten "you're a big mean poopiehead" seems infallible because you'd never gotten a chance to learn about the two Rhymes of Rebuttal: "I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" and "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me".

I'm disappointed in the quality of kindergarten-style insults you've been slinging, Sheshbazzar. You've skipped some of the classics: for instance, my explaining the fact of Biblical verses in which God states outright that he is wrathful and vengeful and jealous and Bible stories (upon Bible stories upon Bible stories) of God killing babies and small children and encouraging such killing gave you a perfect opportunity to use "Liar, liar, pants on fire, hang them on a telephone wire, if you dare, catch a bear, but don't forget your underwear" (probably best shortened to "liar, liar, pants on fire" in this case). But you squandered it by just finishing off with a typical pious-theist "I'll pray for you" argument instead of a fun kid's argument.

So, in summary, we've got the following proofs of God's essential goodness:
1) The cherry-picking argument:
All these verses say God is good.
The Bible is always right, except when it contradicts the point I'm trying to make, in which case it's wrong.
So all the verses that say God isn't good, because they contradict the point I'm trying to make, are wrong, even though there's more of them.
So God is good.

2) The "I know, but I'm not telling you" argument.
I can prove that God is good.
I'm not going to, because I don't want to.
But the proof really does exist.
So God is good.

3) The "you're wrong because you're not nice" argument.
Your arguments that God isn't good make Baby Jesus cry.
Why do you hate Baby Jesus?
You're just mean, and I don't like you.
Therefore, you're wrong.
So God is good.

4) Also, shades of the "people who disagree with me are pathetic", aka the argumentum ad strawman.
She's only saying that God isn't good because she hates God.
Pathetic, isn't it?
So God is good.

5) Finally, the old standby, "I'll pray for you." This argument goes like this:
Obviously something is wrong in your life, or you wouldn't argue that God isn't good.
So I'll pray for you.
So God is good.


Is that the best the theists can offer? Why do all these Christians think that they can set their own understanding above the Word of God?

TomboyMom

Yes, you're right, if that God existed, he would be the opposite of either loving or just. In fact he is embodies the best idea that an ancient, primitive people had about what a God ought to be like, which is powerful and scary. The point of most of these stories is to love and obey God, or he will kill you. Although he might just kill you anyway. (Job)

What weird is that people in this day and age still believe in and worship this God. Why do you?