Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jakejonesiv · 02-12-2007, 11:53 AM

Code:

      "Midrash" 
         from LXX------\ 
               \        \
                \        \
                 Mark----Matthew 
                /    \      |
               /      \     |
  proto gospels        \    |No "Q"
               \        \   | 
                \        \  v
          Evangelion-----Luke
          /       
         /         
Pauline            
Redeemer------------------------------------------Eznik
Myth                    


                           Valentinius ----> John

The diagram above also needs a connection from "Midrash" from LXX to Luke. "Midrash" here is loosely defined, and indicates creation of details in the life of Jesus from recasting OT tales.

It must be kept in mind that any of these diagrams are much too simplified; the gospels stayed in a fluid state well into the second half of the second century.

Jake

Ben C Smith · 02-12-2007, 12:56 PM

Just love all these well-constructed diagrams.

(Not one of which outlines the correct view.

)

Ben.

jakejonesiv · 02-12-2007, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Just love all these well-constructed diagrams.

(Not one of which outlines the correct view.

)

Ben.

How's this one?

Code:


                    |----Matthew
                    |
                    |----Mark
      Holy Spirit---|       
                    |----Luke
                    |
                    |----John

Ben C Smith · 02-12-2007, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

How's this one?

You forgot a parallel stemma with the devil :devil1: inspiring the gospels of Peter and Thomas, the Acts of John, and the Marcionite gospel.

But come. You (should) know me better than all that.

BTW, as soon as I figure out the correct graph, I will let you know. Sometime before 2050, with any luck.

Ben.

jakejonesiv · 02-12-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

You forgot a parallel stemma with the devil :devil1: inspiring the gospels of Peter and Thomas, the Acts of John, and the Marcionite gospel.

But come. You (should) know me better than all that.

BTW, as soon as I figure out the correct graph, I will let you know. Sometime before 2050, with any luck.

Ben.

There is a similar fantastic possibility.
Here, we postulate an Ur-Gospel (rather than the Holy Spirit), that contains material from which all three synoptic gospels were derived. What would such an ur-Gospel look like? It would possibly resemble Justin’s “Memoirs.”

Sort of a "harmony of the gospels" before the discrete gospels were extracted. :huh:

Jake

Malachi151 · 02-12-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

There is a similar fantastic possibility.
Here, we postulate an Ur-Gospel (rather than the Holy Spirit), that contains material from which all three synoptic gospels were derived. What would such an ur-Gospel look like?

.... mark....

Casper · 02-12-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Code:

      "Midrash" 
         from LXX------\ 
               \        \
                \        \
                 Mark----Matthew 
                /    \      |
               /      \     |
  proto gospels        \    |No "Q"
               \        \   | 
                \        \  v
          Evangelion-----Luke
          /       
         /         
Pauline            
Redeemer------------------------------------------Eznik
Myth                    


                           Valentinius ----> John

The diagram above also needs a connection from "Midrash" from LXX to Luke. "Midrash" here is loosely defined, and indicates creation of details in the life of Jesus from recasting OT tales.

It must be kept in mind that any of these diagrams are much too simplified; the gospels stayed in a fluid state well into the second half of the second century.

Jake

Okay, I can see that. Kind of what I had in my first one.

I don't have to have a Q per say, but is there any "Q type material" in Evangelion? I am not familiar enough with it but i didn't notice anything in Zahn's translation (what I found online). In fact the Jesus Persona I read in Zahn's work sounded like a crotchety, almost sarcastic, as**ole who needed a good smackdown. Not that my impression is in any way enlightened, that's just the "vibe" I got.

Malachi151 · 02-12-2007, 02:59 PM

I think that the idea that Luke is based on Matthew is pretty bogus. Luke seems to have been written with no knowledge of Matthew at all IMO.

Q seems much more likely than No Q.

Casper · 02-12-2007, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

.... mark....

So would that mean the gospels and christianity are not Jewish in origin? Just a literary setting in an unpleasant land among unpopular people to give it "mystery"?

That would go hand-in-hand with the Caesar-Jesus theories.

Malachi151 · 02-12-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

So would that mean the gospels and christianity are not Jewish in origin? Just a literary setting in an unpleasant land among unpopular people to give it "mystery"?

That would go hand-in-hand with the Caesar-Jesus theories.

I don't know about the Ceasar BS, but my in reading of Mark its not a very pro-Jewish work, indeed its anti-Jewish, but I think anti-Jewish from a Jewish perspective, kind of like Noam Chomksy on America.

For that matter, Paul was anti-Jewish from a Jewish perspective.

02-12-2007, 11:53 AM	#21
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	Code: "Midrash" from LXX------\ \ \ \ \ Mark----Matthew / \ \| / \ \| proto gospels \ \|No "Q" \ \ \| \ \ v Evangelion-----Luke / / Pauline Redeemer------------------------------------------Eznik Myth Valentinius ----> John The diagram above also needs a connection from "Midrash" from LXX to Luke. "Midrash" here is loosely defined, and indicates creation of details in the life of Jesus from recasting OT tales. It must be kept in mind that any of these diagrams are much too simplified; the gospels stayed in a fluid state well into the second half of the second century. Jake

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02-12-2007, 12:56 PM	#22
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Just love all these well-constructed diagrams. (Not one of which outlines the correct view. ) Ben.

02-12-2007, 02:59 PM	#28
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I think that the idea that Luke is based on Matthew is pretty bogus. Luke seems to have been written with no knowledge of Matthew at all IMO. Q seems much more likely than No Q.

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