Vinnie

Word of advice from the Post-Easter Jesus: "Pull the plank out of our own behind before pointing out the specks of sawdust in Christian's eyes.

You are pushing your beliefs--I suppose your own "hate-filled bigotry" onto Christianity. You are not tolerating Christianity which is an evangelistic religion. To tell Christians they can't preach to you is to tell them to not be Christians. Its an inherent property of the religion.

Its also a good thing that they preach to you. You granted the legitimacy of the first point that it is their "right to believe you are going to the fires of hell." Now you tell them they are hateful and being bad by "trying to save you from the fires of hell"? What gives?

You are very intolerant of Christians yet you expect them to not step on your toes a little through preaching and so on. Very sad! You expect to give an inch (accecpting point a) and take a mile in return (dismissing point b).

This position warrants no respect and I will not give it any. You plainly are intolerant of Christianity.

Vinnie

Family Man

Actually, Vinnie, the requirement for proselyzation is interpreted quite widely among Christian faith. Even among sects where witnessing is a requirement there seems to be limits as to where and when such behavior is acceptable. My kid's piano teacher is a JW, but she hasn't once tried to preach to us (probably would be bad for business).

Thus, it is not inherent (though many consider it important and desirable). It is a chosen behavior. And if I or anyone else decide we don't want to listen to it, there is nothing I know of in the Christian faith that requires the adherents to force others to listen. And most of the time when I'm approached, they cheerfully accede to my wishes.

In short, it is the behavior that I, for one, can't tolerate. Heck, I don't mind even someone asks me if I "know Jesus". It's only if they continue after I make it clear I'm not interested that the sharpness of my tongue makes an appearance.

So obviously, one can tolerate Christianity, but not tolerate unwanted preaching.

slaveofChrist

JWs and Mormons leave the preaching up the missionaries unless they know you really well. I dont understand why you cant believe that we preach out of good intentions? I try not to persist when people express a distaste or are uninterested, but its difficult because I really wish they could understand and experience the joy that I have. I can understand where you are coming from, but lets not be too harsh.

Family Man

Where did I say that you (or anyone) preaches out of bad intentions? But then you know what they say about hell...

I will say that you appear to lack understanding of others. You seem to have difficulty understanding that most people on this board like myself already have joy in their lives, and don't need or want the joy you're allegedly offering. But that's just you, and is not a blanket condemnation of all who preach.

Vinnie

Let me put it this way, good Christians seek to save the lost. Lukewarm--I believe this by declaration openly but subconsciously I don't -- Christians engage in evangelization.

This is a red herring. No one said there shouldn't be limits. No one is allowed to barge into your house and force you to listen to them. They are free to knock and if you let them in that is your choice. There is also a time and a place for everything (see Eccl.)

This is a tautology. Its a command of the religion itself and all commands involve a person makng a choice to choose or not choose. Its like saying I go to a supermarket and make a choice to pay for the grocery rather than run with them out to the car. Sure I make the "choice" but its a "duh" choice. Its not a real hard choice. It comes with the territory of shopping.

I never said you need to be "forced" to listen. You can simply say "go away", "not interested", "please stop knocking on my door".

= Respect. Goliath answered some of my questions in a blanket fashion. He said it stops at the doorstep//whatever. But then i nthe next line he answers with a blanket no and closes about some hate filled bigotry or some such.

It depends on the where and when.

Barging into a wake and saying, hey, yall don't have to go to hell like this man is deserving of being shot. We all agree that there are limits. This goes without saying.

Vinnie

Goliath

Vinnie,

No thanks. The last person--fictional or not--that I'd take advice from is Jesus.

First of all, atheism is not a belief, but a lack of belief.

Secondly, how is it possible to push beliefs onto a religion?

For once, we agree. In fact, this is the understatement of the new millennium. I hate xianity. However, believe it or not, I'm actually trying to get rid of my hatred for xianity.

Sadly, I get the feeling that you have confused "hatred for xianity" with "hatred for xians". Of course, I do not hate xians. There are many xians whom I do not hate (my mother, my stepfather and my graduate advisor being just a few of them). Similarly, I tolerate the right of xians to believe what they believe, but I do not tolerate xianity.


Since there exist xians that do not feel the need to evangelize, you are demonstrably wrong.

To you, perhaps. Not to I.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Edited to fix an answer due to a misreading.

Goliath

Respect for the right that Family Man has to be an atheist, not necessarily respect for atheism.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Jackalope

Does not follow, as not all sects of christianity feel a need to preach at non-believers. To quote a local Quaker elder, "Evangelicizing to a Quaker means wearing a Wouldn't You Like To Be A Quaker Too? button." The idea that one must be an in-your-face hellfire and brimstone bible-thumper is not at all inherent in christianity. It's not even inherent in all the protestant sects. The practice of "witnessing" (read: preaching) to every person one spends any time with is definitely not anywhere in the Bible. Spreading the word does not imply a need to threaten people with hell, nor does it require one to attempt to convert those who are unreceptive.

"Don't bother me, I won't bother you" isn't going to fly as a description of "hate-filled bigotry." Once one has heard the so called Good News once and rejected it, one is not required to listen to the next (and the next, and the next...) proselytizer.

Family Man

Then, Vinnie, I fail to see your point. You say that if I don't tolerate proselytizing, then I'm intolerant of Christianity. But you seem to fully agree that Goliath and I have every right not to listen if we don't want to. That seems to create a separation between Christianity's outreach and it's belief system. By agreeing that there are limits to certain behaviors, you've pretty much agreed it is possible to tolerate someone's belief without tolerating some of the more obnoxious behaviors that come from that belief.

I don't think you understand where we're coming from. I'm not saying that Christians don't have a right to try to convince others. I'm saying they don't have a right to convince others if the others don't want to listen. Nothing intolerant about that at all.

Respect is a two way street. If someone demands respect for their religious position then they better be willing to respect my position.

Goliath

After rereading this thread, I noticed a mistake that I made. Vinnie said "You are not tolerating xianity." For whatever reason, I somehow misread that as something equivalent to "You dislike xianity" and responded accordingly.

My apologies for the mistake.

The fact that I do not try to eliminate xianity from the world (not that I'd be likely able to) implies that I tolerate xianity. Believe it or not, Vinnie, I'm trying to get rid of my hatred for xianity.

Sincerely,

Goliath