Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TomboyMom · 01-27-2006, 08:14 AM

I just thought of something else that's a derail. I believe that the Catholics say that there is a line of succession from the original apostles to the Pope. Where do they get this? Has this always been their position, and what is their justification for it?

TomboyMom · 01-27-2006, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUmike

The predominant position in modern scholarship is that Paul and Mark are writing about the same historical person.

This is so great. I wish I could have a seminar like this about everything else that I don't understand. I might catch on to astrophysics if it were explained like this. O.K., if Paul's Jesus and Mark's Jesus are the same actual person, how come Paul has no clue that he was born in Bethlehem etc? Shouldn't Paul have known all that in 70 A.D.?

The idea that the Jesus myth has so much in common with other heroic/religious myths of the era and place, how much do scholars think the Jesus story was derived from those stories? How much truth is there to the statements I have seen made about other Gods who had a virgin birth with God as father, rose from the dead after 3 days, etc.?

Julian · 01-27-2006, 08:21 AM

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TomboyMom · 01-27-2006, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUmike

I think the exact same thing! I would say most scholars in the field are Christian. I, too, find it amazing that anyone can honestly and objectively study the evidence and conclude that Jesus is still "God". Realistically, though, it seems to be the majority position that Jesus did NOT claim to be the messiah, and he certainly did not say the ridiculous things attributed to him in the Gospel of John (e.g. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to the father except through me", etc.).

Are you telling me that there are respected, not crazy modern Christian scholars, teaching in seminaries or whatever, who know when Paul wrote, know that Mark collected some stories, Matthew copied, etc., know that not a single author of anything in the New Testament was alive when any of it is supposed to have happened, and still believe in the virgin birth, resurrection, etc? That is whacko!

Julian · 01-27-2006, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

I just thought of something else that's a derail. I believe that the Catholics say that there is a line of succession from the original apostles to the Pope. Where do they get this? Has this always been their position, and what is their justification for it?

They do claim this. They say that their line started from Peter and continued from there, however, they can produce no reliable documentation for this claim and it is probably false. Supposedly Peter went to Rome, became its first Bishop and was martyred there. This all comes from Apocryphal late writings, nothing contemporary.

Julian

Julian · 01-27-2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Are you telling me that there are respected, not crazy modern Christian scholars, teaching in seminaries or whatever, who know when Paul wrote, know that Mark collected some stories, Matthew copied, etc., know that not a single author of anything in the New Testament was alive when any of it is supposed to have happened, and still believe in the virgin birth, resurrection, etc? That is whacko!

There are quite a few scholars like that. We have several right here in BC&H. They are christian but display a remarkable level of knowledge. While I do not understand them I do admire their intellectual honesty.

Julian

robto · 01-27-2006, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Are you telling me that there are respected, not crazy modern Christian scholars, teaching in seminaries or whatever, who know when Paul wrote, know that Mark collected some stories, Matthew copied, etc., know that not a single author of anything in the New Testament was alive when any of it is supposed to have happened, and still believe in the virgin birth, resurrection, etc? That is whacko!

There are also those (like J. D. Crossan and John Shelby Spong) who know all this stuff and DON'T belive in the virgin birth, resurrection, etc, but who still consider themselves Christian.

Amaleq13 · 01-27-2006, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Who was Peter? Remember, I'm not Christian, so I don't know this stuff.

According to Paul, he was the first to witness the risen Christ.

According to Mark, his name was actually Simon and "Peter" was a nickname Jesus gave him. It literally translates as "rock" and the author of Matthew tells us Jesus gave him that nickname because "upon this rock I will build my church". (And that is the birth of the papal tradition to which you referred).

TomboyMom · 01-27-2006, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

According to Paul, he was the first to witness the risen Christ.

According to Mark, his name was actually Simon and "Peter" was a nickname Jesus gave him. It literally translates as "rock" and the author of Matthew tells us Jesus gave him that nickname because "upon this rock I will build my church". (And that is the birth of the papal tradition to which you referred).

Was he an apostle? Do we know the names of the alleged apostles?

TomboyMom · 01-27-2006, 09:19 AM

Still loving this. The lazy woman's way to get educated! What's kata sarka?

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01-27-2006, 08:14 AM	#31
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	I just thought of something else that's a derail. I believe that the Catholics say that there is a line of succession from the original apostles to the Pope. Where do they get this? Has this always been their position, and what is their justification for it?

01-27-2006, 08:21 AM	#33
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	[MOD] This thread is for questions and answers. Please refrain from starting discussions and/or adding esoteric, non-mainstream comments. Julian Moderator BC&H [/MOD]

01-27-2006, 09:19 AM	#40
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	Still loving this. The lazy woman's way to get educated! What's kata sarka?

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