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Old 04-05-2012, 07:16 AM   #11
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If you read Free Republic and then read Democratic Underground, you will find two radically different Barack Obamas being discussed. Does that mean that Barack Obama does not exist?
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:37 AM   #12
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Diogenes:

No I think descriptions of President Obama that are radically different on two sites is strong evidence that some guy named Obama does exist.

Let's do a thought experiment. Suppose we had no evidence that a City named London apart from seven novels, written by seven different authors which were each set in a city called Landon on the river Thames where there was a big clock called Ben. Notwithstanding the fact that novels are by definition fiction I would consider the repetition of the city of London to be evidence that a city of that name exists or did exist. Wouldn't you?

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Old 04-05-2012, 07:40 AM   #13
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What is the null hypothesis for Jesus mythicism? Does it offer any falsifiable predictions? If so, what? If not, then how can it be evaluated empirically?
If you adopt Doherty's definition, then it is obviously falsifiable in the narrow Popperian terms you propose. A discovery of a manuscript of Josephus with an intact TF datable from the second century would do grave damage to it. So would a gospel that contained a dry historical account rather than accounts invented out of the Old Testament. So would the discovery of a previously unknown account from a historian or similar with narrated the historical kernel that Historicists have invented. But frankly I have little fear of any such thing happening.

But I don't think your approach is correct. Do historical claims have a null hypothesis in that kind of naive Popperian sense that you appear to mean? Don't think so. Interpretive frameworks don't have null hypotheses. They are viewed in terms of their ability to persuade others that they provide a more robust explanation of historical data than other frameworks and can only be similarly refuted. What is the Null Hypothesis for "the South lost the Civil War due to the low quality of its military leadership in the west". What is the Null Hypothesis for "China failed to develop western-style science because did not have Christianity?" There aren't any. The only way to approach the question would be to gather up the data and see what kind of interpretive framework explained the data in a way that satisfied reasonable minds. But then we get into the messy process of social agreement over just what the framework and its interpretation are, as well as what it explains and whether it explains it well. That is what we are doing in the HJ/MJ debate.

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Naive Popperian? HeeHee.

To rehash another thread. Saying I see no evidencee for god therefor I reject the hypothesis is not the same as saying the god hypothesis is subject to scientfic falsifioaction, which is what Popper said. Religiion is not a scientifdicly falsifiable hypothesis.

Science and religion are really two differenr human areas excpet where religion makes specific claims to objective reality such as young Earth creationism.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:45 AM   #14
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Buddhism has the same problem. There is no contemporary historcal coorboration for the character.

A letter between two known Romans or Jews saying what's up with this Jesus character we've been hearing about, I saw him ride by on a donkey last week followed by 12 guys wpould be a help..
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:56 AM   #15
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Mythicism could be falsified by finding the tomb of Jesus, complete with skeleton.

Mythicism would be highly improbable if we found the volume of Tacitus' History that discussed events in Palestine around 30 CE, and this volume made some reference to a crucified wisdom teacher whose followers just wouldn't give up.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:02 AM   #16
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When you say "tomb of Jesus," what do you mean by "Jesus," (the Talpiot tomb is a "tomb of Jesus," after all) and how would you prove any skeleton was the skeleton of Jesus?
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:08 AM   #17
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Toto:

Wouldn't mythers claim that the reference to Jesus in the hypothetical Tacitus were Christian interpolations? They have been known to do that.

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Old 04-05-2012, 08:13 AM   #18
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If you read Free Republic and then read Democratic Underground, you will find two radically different Barack Obamas being discussed. Does that mean that Barack Obama does not exist?
If only this had anything to do with what was under discussion.

O wait, yes it does, because like all historicist argumentation, it relies on assuming its conclusions as well as misrepresenting what is actually going on.

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Old 04-05-2012, 08:14 AM   #19
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Science and religion are really two differenr human areas excpet where religion makes specific claims to objective reality such as young Earth creationism.
We're not arguing about science vs religion, but whether a term like "null hypothesis" has any application in the kind of historical study under discussion.

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Old 04-05-2012, 08:19 AM   #20
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Let's do a thought experiment. Suppose we had no evidence that a City named London apart from seven novels, written by seven different authors which were each set in a city called Landon on the river Thames where there was a big clock called Ben. Notwithstanding the fact that novels are by definition fiction I would consider the repetition of the city of London to be evidence that a city of that name exists or did exist. Wouldn't you?
Do you think Gotham city exists? How about Thendara?

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