Gunnaheave

You're non defence of the executions reads an awful lot like a defence of the executions.

BSM

A few points: 1) I suspect that Catholic Convert may not even have been aware that there is a difference. In other words, I was speaking to the whole notion of "brothers in Christ" ecumenical unity that is often the canned answer a Christian will get when he/she asks his/her pastor, priest, etc.

2) They *can* be insults depending on how they are presented. In fact, I've seen some Lutherans and Catholics get quite nasty.

3) You are *partially* correct if you are presenting them as honest critiques. However, I find it ironic that the Catholic Church (i.e., the Pope et al) will preach ecumenical unity out of one side of their mouth and then level a critique that says we're right and you (i.e., Protestants) are wrong. Really, they can't have it both ways. Either the Catholic Church is correct or they are all correct.

In other words, how do you reconcile unity with these statements:
*are not Churches in the proper sense
*albeit imperfect
*they suffer from defects
*fullness of Christianity

Christianity is pretty much a black and white proposition: either you are saved or you are not. Either you are a church in the proper sense or you are not. If it's the latter then this implies that you are wrong and not saved.

So are Protestants bound for hell?

Chili: please explain what it means when you say "premature exposure of the inner sanctum (soul) to the congregation that leaves them torn in the saved sinner complex until they die."

Does this mean they are saved or that they are going to hell?

It is also important to understand that the Catholic Church (much like Christinaity in general) keeps flip-flopping on hell. In fact, the Pope made these statements in 1999:

So, the Pope went from a physical place to separation from God. It's ironic that God's line of representives (i.e., the Popes) here on earth keep changing their mind about what hell is.

~BSM

Jehanne

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM

BSM

...but Christianity is true.

Jehanne

:devil3:

Chili

Sure, that was in agreement with hinduwoman who suggested that anybody who accepts the creed is a Christian. That, of course, is wrong (she's just here to flare some fires) because they are believers in the creed and not Christians but at best Christian-in-becoming. Please don't be offended. I am also here to flare some fires. The pope must try to be all things to all people. If he would tell the same story that I tell here he might win the argument but that would remove the mystery of Catholicism and that is also wrong for that would remove the entire purpose of Catholicism as a mystery religion.

So yes, only the Catholic Church is right and the rest (apart from Judaism) is wrong in Christendom. Yes, but there is a difference between Catholic and protestant salvation. In Catholicism the Church will have served its purpose on the day of salvation while in protestantism the day of salvation is where religion begins (perhaps I am wrong to generalize here but in evangelical denominations this is true).

Let me add here that "the day of salvation" is not a Catholic term and therefore Catholics are not saved in that sense (many protestants would agree with this). Notice that in my Catholicism religion will have served its purpose on the day of salvation and therefore Catholics are Catholic and not Christian. Ie, Catholics are sinners and have the confessionals to prove this.Not necessarily because some of them remain "cold" and will just die and get buried. It is when we are born again that we are made "lukewarm" and "enter the race" wherein we must work out our own salvation to become "hot" (in the sense of this metaphor).

Those who have been made "lukewarm" but fail to "complete the race" will remain torn in the saved sinner complex and die in that same state of mind which becomes hell on earth (which must be true if it is possible to complete the race and so regain paradise on earth).

The period of time that Catholics spend to work out their own salvation is called Purgatory which is to last only 42 months according to Rev.13.

So it is wrong to say that Protestants are bound for hell but it is right to say that heaven is not a destiny that is available to them (which is not to say that all Catholics 'go to' heaven). Yes, I think that this is wrong and should never be asked of anybody. The public declaration that one accepts Jesus as personal savior at the age of accountability is a rational act that prevents us from becoming the person we are meant to be. The intrinsic evil lies in the premature awakening of our supreme identity that resides in our soul which here is done at the cost of our human integrity (read hymen) that is actually violated by this exposure. Hence I call it spiritual fornication that is also condemned throughout the bible. Songs 2:7 deals with this but also and especially Jn.1:13 where two kinds of rebirth are identified: "[those] who were begotten not by blood, nor by carnal desire, nor by man's willing it, but by God." Clearly, this shows that two kinds of rebirth are available to us but that only one of them will lead to eternal life.

It should be noted here that only if the altar call was 'effective' will it affect our journey in life and this will be evident by the degree in which we are torn by the saved sinner complex. The cause of this effect is called "the wrath of God poured full strength in the cup of his anger" in Rev.14:10.It is not my ambition to condemn anybody to hell but to be saved and live with the idea that we must die before things will get better must be hell on earth. There is no coming or going about heaven or hell. Perception is what makes the difference between heaven and hell.That is much like what I am saying except that I would add that hell is to be made consciously aware of the existence of God without being able to become God (which is something that the pope is never allowed to say as the head of the Church).It has always been a state of mind but that is for the believer to discover after religion has served its purpose.

Chili

Notice that in Catholicism Christianity is not a religion or there would be temples in the New Jerusalem. This must be evident from the fact that Catholics do not claim to be saved but that they have the Church Triumphant for those who desire to return to the Church after they have completed their purgation period.

BSM

Not even close! Tired and amused yes. Offended? Hardly.

OK then, we agree that Catholicism and Protestantism do not agree.

I can accept that generalization.

Right - and you know this how?

Ok, is this the Catholic version of the Rapture?

How convienent.

Oh come now, if Heaven is not available there is only one other option.

I'm too weary to cart out those verses from the Bible that Protestants use to support their version of Heaven and Hell.

More like contridictory interpretations of a book that is alleged to have been created and inspired by an omnipotent and omniscient God "is what makes the difference between heaven and hell.

That's pattently false. Catholicism and Protestantism have continued to flip-flop over the centuries on the nature of hell. Your own Pope has flip-flopped within his own lifetime or did you not read the threads?

~BSM

BSM

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

However, I could be wrong. If you have evidence for your curious definitions of religion, Christian, and Catholic I would encourage you to send your correction to the good folks at OED.

Regards,

~BSM

Chili

Well you cannot expect to pope to tell his flock to go home and ponder the idea that when Jesus said "the reign of God is already in you midst" he meant to say that "it is all in your head" because that would be the end of Catholicism while it should be the beginning. His job, therefore, is to have Catholics accept this as a constant and the Church must provide the mechanism that leads to the actual realization that the reign of God exists only in the mind of the believer (which would be equal to heaven on earth).