Rev. Timothy G. Muse

Total depravity is something you are born with. Man's conscience does not determine it or limit it, but rather is itself affected by it.

I do not deny that the flesh (condition of sinful man apart from the Spirit) is utterly corrupt IN ITSELF, but the grace of God restrains this corruption for the preservation of all.

There are many motives and reasons why totally depraved men do not give way to their depravity. For example, you may want to seek revenge on a person who has done you wrong, but your desire to be thought highly of by others may lead you to constrain that desire. You may consider participating in certain immoral acts, but fear of consequences may restrain you... etc.

The Christian doctrine of common grace in connection with utter depravity is not specifically addressing "which sin is the worst", but rather explaining why totally depraved individuals do not act worse than they do.

I'm not sure what reference you are alluding to here. God distinguishes between good and evil, righteous and unrighteous, moral and immoral. I believe your question mistakes the extent for the nature.

Covered above. It's not that your nature would be any more depraved, but that your depth and participation in unrighteousness would be more.

Would man come to know of his condition and his need for salvation through Christ if this were the case?

On one level, it is not to either your interest or the interest of humanity to encourage or educate you in this area.

On another level, let me ask "Why do you comply with God's moral law, and not do all you can to violate every aspect of it to the full extent you can?

BadBadBad

You still haven't answered the question. Why does our conscience limit us from utter depravity but not total depravity.


You didn't define common grace in terms of man limiting himself. You defined common grace as God limiting man. "God restrains this corruption for hte preservation of all." Why doesn't he restrain it a little further, perhaps for the preservation of a child being raped and murdered?

You didn't answer the question here either. Why if the offense is against God do Christians define utter depravity in terms of utter offense against man? I don't have anything against man. For the sake of argument, I want to rebel against God not man.

When any sin against God is sufficient sin to warrant the ultimate punishment, explain to me the significance of this extent you're talking about. What's the difference to God if I murder 6 million as compared to one child?

How much more? Please be more specific. It's beginning to sound like it's impossible to demonstrate your own concept of utter depravity. Using these evasive answers, I could chalk up the worst attrocities committed by man to total depravity instead of utter. Could Hitler have been more depraved? Certainly.

So you're saying that mankind needs to see every single child that's raped, beaten, and murdered for us to recognize the love of Jesus Christ? I suppose you need that too. You personally need to see the total depravity of man. You need to see every act of child abuse, every painful tortuous death, every act of genocide. You must personally rejoice in every ounce of suffering inflicted on everyone else. You must rejoice to God your utter thanks that God allowed this suffering just for you. The more suffering the better because this assures you of your need for the love of Jesus Christ.

Why in the interest of humanity? Why not in the interest of God? Why must the extent of my depravity hinge on acts against mankind and not acts of sin against God? If I am to rebel utterly against God, why do you think I must necessarly rebel utterly against mankind? This makes perfect sense if God does not exist at all.

What you seem to be saying is that to be utterly depraved, I have to set aside morality altogether and not only that but to set out to utterly violate all morality. What would be my motivation? The only motivation I could possibly think of is to consciously rebel against God. As an atheist, I don't believe God exists, so what could possibly motivate me to commit heinous sins against mankind. This is what you're implying is required, even though you refuse to answer why sin against mankind is required to utterly sin against God. You seem to be saying that I have to believe in God's existence before I can utterly sin against him.

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A sin that your god deliberately set up in the first place...knowing beforehand exactly what would happen...and then inflicting curses totally out of porportion to the "crime". God is the one who started the ball rolling with full knowledge of the consequences. Yet you lay the blame on all of humanity.

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

Again, this is not the biblical position.

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I would call it an accurate summation.