Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 02-24-2013, 01:34 PM

Writings under the name of Tertullian appear to be forgeries since there were NO characters called Peter and Paul who were executed under Nero and NO evidence of a Jesus cult of Christians at that time.

The very Church and its writers claimed Paul was ALIVE AFTER gLuke was composed. See Origen's Commentary on Matthew, Eusebius' Church History 6

gLuke was composed AFTER NERO was dead and AFTER c 70 CE.

People called Christians, not necesarily only those of the Jesus cult, were persecuted or hated in the 2nd century based on Pliny, Aristides, Justin Martyr, Melito, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, and Origen in "Against Celsus".

Huon · 02-25-2013, 03:06 AM

From Catholic Encyclopedia :

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09746a.htm

Quote:

On two days is a group of ten thousand martyrs mentioned in the Roman Martyrology. On 18 March: "At Nicomedia ten thousand holy martyrs who were put to the sword for the confession of Christ", and on 22 June: "On Mount Ararat the martyrdom of ten thousand holy martyrs who were crucified." The first entry, found in an old Greek martyrology, translated by Cardinal Sirleto and published by H.Canisius, probably notes the veneration of a number of those who gave their lives for Christ at the beginning of the prosecution of Diocletian, in 303 (Acta SS., March, II, 616). That the number is not an exaggeration is evident from Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl.", VIII, vi), Lactantius ("De morte prosecut.", xv). The entry of 22 June is based upon a legend (Acta SS., June, V, 151) said to have been translated from a Greek original (which cannot, however, be found) by Anastasius Bibliothecarius (who died in 886), and dedicated to Peter, Bishop of Sabina (? d. 1221).
(...)

The martyrs are not given by anyone before Petrus de Natalibus, Bishop of Equilio in 1371. The Greeks do not mention them in Menæa, Menologium, or Horologium, nor do the Copts or Armenians. Surius omitted them in the first and second edition of his "Vitâ Sanctorum". Henschenius the Bollandist intended to put the group among the Prâtermissi. Papebroeck admitted it to the body of the work only on the authority of Radulph de Rivo (Bibl. Patrum, XXVI, Lyons, 1677, 298) and classifies the Acts as apocryphal, while Baronius takes up their defence (Annales Eccl., ad an. 108, n.2). The veneration of the Ten Thousand Martyrs is found in Denmark, Sweden, Poland, France, Spain, and Portugal. Relics are claimed by the church of St. Vitus in Prague, by Vienne, Scutari in Sicily, Cuenca in Spain, Lisbon and Coimbra in Portugal.

GenesisNemesis · 02-25-2013, 03:07 AM

There should be a degree in Heresy.

Grog · 02-25-2013, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Sounds almost identical in approach and justification to the people who deny that the holocaust happened.

And I don't think we know about those events through "cherished church tradition". Our sources of information are literary and documentary texts.

Holocaust denialism has a much higher hurdle to jump, literally a mountain of irrefutable evidence. Bona fide eye-witnesses (including Nazis, even Jewish survivors who were pressed into Nazi service), still smouldering ovens with human remains found by allied soldiers, photographic evidence--documented by the Nazis themselves, documents created by the Nazis. I think the comparison was meant mostly to shock and poison the well, it is hardly a legitimate one. I would think that the evocation of "Nazi denialism" would be beneath the standards of most participants on this board.

sharrock · 02-25-2013, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharrock

I imagine the Flavian Dynasty were ambivalent.

Is that an answer?

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/24/the_...nt_persecuted/

Logical · 02-25-2013, 01:08 PM

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Myt...Age-of/137423/

Toto · 02-25-2013, 01:49 PM

From
The Myths Behind the Age of Martyrs by Candida Moss:

Quote:

... For the vast majority of the pre-Constantinian period, Christians flourished.

They were, as the third-century Christian writer Tertullian tells us, able to succeed in politics, law, and business. They were not hiding, either in the catacombs in Rome or in general. On the eve of Diocletian's Great Persecution—which, beginning in 303, outlawed Christian scriptures, prohibited Christians from meeting, and razed places of worship***—a newly erected church nestled across from the imperial palace in Nicomedia in Turkey, a symbol of the confidence of Christians living in the Roman Empire.

spin · 02-25-2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From
The Myths Behind the Age of Martyrs by Candida Moss:

Quote:

... For the vast majority of the pre-Constantinian period, Christians flourished.

They were, as the third-century Christian writer Tertullian tells us, able to succeed in politics, law, and business. They were not hiding, either in the catacombs in Rome or in general. On the eve of Diocletian's Great Persecution—which, beginning in 303, outlawed Christian scriptures, prohibited Christians from meeting, and razed places of worship***—a newly erected church nestled across from the imperial palace in Nicomedia in Turkey, a symbol of the confidence of Christians living in the Roman Empire.

One of the reasons why the Annals 15.44 passage is held to so tenaciously is because it is one of the few passages thought to be early that supports the "Neronian persecution". Beside this are a few babblings about fantastic martyrdoms of Peter and Paul. The response to being shown the problems of the passage is usually quite rabid. To suggest that it is the fake it looks like is metaphorically equated with raping babies or dicing virgins' breasts.

andrewcriddle · 02-25-2013, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

One of the reasons why the Annals 15.44 passage is held to so tenaciously is because it is one of the few passages thought to be early that supports the "Neronian persecution". Beside this are a few babblings about fantastic martyrdoms of Peter and Paul. The response to being shown the problems of the passage is usually quite rabid. To suggest that it is the fake it looks like is metaphorically equated with raping babies or dicing virgins' breasts.

IIUC Candida Moss accepts (or did till very recently) that the Annals 15.44 passage is authentic although she has reservations about its historical accuracy. See Ancient Christian Martyrdom

Andrew Criddle

Chili · 02-25-2013, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If Holocaust denial is an imperfect analogy (because it is so recent) perhaps a better parallel is denying that Jewish people or Samaritans had a history of being persecuted in antiquity. They did even if the anecdotal evidence is lacking sometimes

I think Samaritians they were the holy rollers then.

02-25-2013, 01:08 PM	#36
Logical Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: USA Posts: 802	Professor says persecution of early Christians a myth http://chronicle.com/article/The-Myt...Age-of/137423/

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02-24-2013, 01:34 PM	#31
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Writings under the name of Tertullian appear to be forgeries since there were NO characters called Peter and Paul who were executed under Nero and NO evidence of a Jesus cult of Christians at that time. The very Church and its writers claimed Paul was ALIVE AFTER gLuke was composed. See Origen's Commentary on Matthew, Eusebius' Church History 6 gLuke was composed AFTER NERO was dead and AFTER c 70 CE. People called Christians, not necesarily only those of the Jesus cult, were persecuted or hated in the 2nd century based on Pliny, Aristides, Justin Martyr, Melito, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras, Minucius Felix, and Origen in "Against Celsus".

02-25-2013, 03:07 AM	#33
GenesisNemesis Contributor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A pale blue oblate spheroid. Posts: 20,351	There should be a degree in Heresy.

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