Freethought & Rationalism Archive

thief of fire · 03-27-2013, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

She connects the cross of the crucifixion with the cross of the zodiac. If you can see that connection, then connecting a virginal young woman with an Egyptian goddess whose female worshipers were at times virgins is easy.

How is it easy?

What do you mean by "female worshippers were at times virgins"? It sounds incredibly vague.
How often were they virgins? What are your sources?

Toto · 03-27-2013, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thief of fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

She connects the cross of the crucifixion with the cross of the zodiac. If you can see that connection, then connecting a virginal young woman with an Egyptian goddess whose female worshipers were at times virgins is easy. ...

How is it easy?

I said "if you can see that connection. . ." If you can't, you're just not going to appreciate Acharya S.

I hope you don't think that I endorse this view.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

...
Even if this is the case (and I'm hard pressed to see that it is what Robert Tulip has written here with respect to the nature of Isis's status as a "virgin"),

The issue goes back some time. Robert Tulip made some vague references to a previous explanation by Acharya S.

Sorry, but Robert Tulip has claimed recently and by citation of AS that AS makes an explicit claim that Isis was knows as a perpetual virgin intacta.

Quote:

The status of Isis as 'perpetual virgin' is subject of a long chapter in Christ In Egypt, which clueless critics should read before they spout trash.

See here. And here with his explicit citation of AS's "Isis Is A Virgin Mother!!!".

His own view is set our clearly here:

Quote:

TMy main issue with the wiki [article on Horus] is that it is completely wrong about the virginity of Isis, as Dave has pointed out above. The statement "Isis resurrected the dismembered god Osiris and had intercourse with him, which precludes the idea of virginity" completely fails to recognise the Egyptian status of Isis as perpetual virgin. [my emphasis]

Jeffrey

Toto · 03-27-2013, 05:42 PM

I didn't recall Robert Tulip's detailed links. But yes, you can see Acharya's position:

Perpetual virginity is a mystery. Pointing out the real meaning of h.nwt is "hair splitting." It's an archetype.

For people like thief of fire who aren't into this, it doesn't make sense. For others, it's blindingly obvious and there is nothing you can say to shake their conviction that this is the truth.

outhouse · 03-27-2013, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Those with less then complete educations on the subject often try and substitute influence for a complete foundation based on either poor sources or ignorance or both.

There is no foundation here, allthough influence to later dogma is obvious.

I'm not sure I understand you. The issue is not one of "substituting influence" for anything (even if it was clear what "substituting influence" for something else means or entails), but whether there is any or enough good evidence to claim the dependence on, and derivation of, one set of ideas from another (in this instance, of Mary on and from supposed Egyptian depictions of Isis) -- and, of course, also whether those who claim -- especially at second hand -- that there is such evidence and who appeal to it to make their case, have the competence to judge how good this evidence is and have not misunderstood and/or misrepresented it -- the supposed "evidence" for Isis being regarded and named by ancient Egyptians as a perpetual virgin intacta being a case in point.

I take it, "outhouse" (-- seriously? "outhouse":huh

, that English is not your first language.

Jeffrey

I was on your side. Still am, despite my post possibly being over your head.

I'll spell it out for you. Often times those following mythical foundations for Christianity are uneducated at a scholarly level of history. They try and place Egyptian and Pagan mythology as the foundation for a historical center of the mythology instead of Judaism and the OT.

We know Isis influenced the dogma surrounding some of Mary's mythology, but influence is where it stops.

Clear

outhouse · 03-27-2013, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I didn't recall Robert Tulip's detailed links. But yes, you can see Acharya's position:

Perpetual virginity is a mystery. Pointing out the real meaning of h.nwt is "hair splitting." It's an archetype.

For people like thief of fire who aren't into this, it doesn't make sense. For others, it's blindingly obvious and there is nothing you can say to shake their conviction that this is the truth.

Toto

This Isis mythology isn't as much a mystery, as it is mythology that evolved over a very long period of time.

It is dishonest for one to cherry pick time periods within specific cultures and then make general claims and apply it to all of said mythology.

its also dishonest to use outdated sources, or poor translation and then try and pass that off as a general interpretation applied to the mythology .

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I didn't recall Robert Tulip's detailed links. But yes, you can see Acharya's position:

And also that RT did not make vague references to things AS said, let alone to any claim on her part that Isis was called a virgin but that her "virginity" was not "virginity" as we understand it or as early Christians understood the nature of Mary's virginity to be. {Has she really made this claim? If so, where?}]

Quote:

Perpetual virginity is a mystery.

For whom? And what do you mean by "mystery"? And if "perpetual virginity" was not an Egyptian concept, then it could hardly be a mystery to Egyptians, whatever you mean by the term.

Quote:

Pointing out the real meaning of h.nwt is "hair splitting."

Quote:

Not if h.nwt doesn't -- and couldn't -- mean what AS and others say it meant to Egyptians.

Quote:

It's an archetype.

Really? Of what, especially if a h.nwt was not a virgin?

Jeffrey

stephan huller · 03-27-2013, 10:21 PM

oops

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

]Those with less then complete educations on the subject often try and substitute influence for a complete foundation based on either poor sources or ignorance or both.

There is no foundation here, allthough influence to later dogma is obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

I'm not sure I understand you. The issue is not one of "substituting influence" for anything (even if it was clear what "substituting influence" for something else means or entails), but whether there is any or enough good evidence to claim the dependence on, and derivation of, one set of ideas from another (in this instance, of Mary on and from supposed Egyptian depictions of Isis) -- and, of course, also whether those who claim -- especially at second hand -- that there is such evidence and who appeal to it to make their case, have the competence to judge how good this evidence is and have not misunderstood and/or misrepresented it -- the supposed "evidence" for Isis being regarded and named by ancient Egyptians as a perpetual virgin intacta being a case in point.

I take it, "outhouse" (-- seriously? "outhouse":huh

, that English is not your first language.

Jeffrey

I was on your side. Still am, despite my post possibly being over your head.

You weren't being "over my head" -- i.e, saying something that if I only had more intelligence I could and would understand. You were writing unintelligibly, saying something that is incapable of being understood no matter what degree of intelligence one possess. "Substituting influence for X" is a semantically nonsensical statement, much like Noam's Chomsky's "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously" is.

Quote:

I'll spell it out for you. Often times those following mythical foundations
for Christianity

Following or claiming?

Quote:

are uneducated at a scholarly level of history.

What does "educated at a scholarly level of history" mean? Did you mean "educated at a SL level in history"?

Quote:

They try and place Egyptian and Pagan mythology as the foundation for a historical center of the mythology instead of Judaism and the OT.

We know Isis influenced the dogma surrounding some of Mary's mythology,

When did this occur?

Quote:

but influence is where it stops.

I have no idea what you mean by "influence", let alone how amd to what degree Isis influenced "marion theology". And after all, isn't Isis influened Marion theology what the "Mary is a type of Isis" people claim Marion theology is?

Quote:

Clear

Not by much, especially since it appears that you've contradicted yourself and acknowledged the legitimacy of what the Mary is a version of Isis people claim.

Now if you are trying to say that the people who claim that Marion theology is dependent upon, and grounded in, and taken over from Isis theology have not done their homework, I'd agree with you. But that's not exactly -- or even close to -- what you "said". And that's all was and am I'm saying. Hence my question about your grasp of English.

Jeffrey

outhouse · 03-27-2013, 11:52 PM

Here is a article you may not be familiar with.

Divine Mothers: The Influence of Isis on the Virgin Mary in Egyptian Lactans-Iconographymore by Sabrina Higgins

There are others as well. You do understand part of what made the movement so successful was its ability to adapt to legends to Hellenistic traditions and philosophies as the movement evolved.

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03-27-2013, 05:42 PM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I didn't recall Robert Tulip's detailed links. But yes, you can see Acharya's position: Perpetual virginity is a mystery. Pointing out the real meaning of h.nwt is "hair splitting." It's an archetype. For people like thief of fire who aren't into this, it doesn't make sense. For others, it's blindingly obvious and there is nothing you can say to shake their conviction that this is the truth.

03-27-2013, 10:21 PM	#18
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	oops

03-27-2013, 11:52 PM	#20
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	Here is a article you may not be familiar with. Divine Mothers: The Influence of Isis on the Virgin Mary in Egyptian Lactans-Iconographymore by Sabrina Higgins There are others as well. You do understand part of what made the movement so successful was its ability to adapt to legends to Hellenistic traditions and philosophies as the movement evolved.

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