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06-25-2011, 02:36 PM | #51 | ||||
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Some folks, here on the forum, I noticed, take exception to your submissions, based upon the notion that your personal beliefs color the interpretation you offer of the evidence. I must say, in my opinion, admittedly, unlearned, I have not found your interpretations particularly colored by Christian rose colored lenses. We are all learning!! Quote:
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Don't agree at all. I sought, evidently, (according to Roger,) without success, to introduce a Persian source, not a Roman source, because of my belief, quite possibly erroneous, that Mithraism is derived from Zoroastrianism, and originated in Persia--i.e. I believe, on faith, that Mithraism had nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. I had thought, that the reference I provided was based upon PERSIAN, not Greek or Latin writings. Roger indicated that I erred in that regard, I hope he, or you, would clarify how we know that the Persians possess no written evidence of Mithraism, predating the arrival on the scene of Christianity. This notion, that we must rely upon one Roman author or another, (both of them either Christians (Justin) or influenced by Christianity--not Mithraism-- (Celsus),) seems to me, to be misleading. Do we actually possess an original manuscript by Celsus, or merely a reference to his work, from someone hostile to his writing? In the latter case, it would certainly not constitute a primary source of information about Mithraism, and I would argue, that, unless Celsus were fluent in Persian, that his writing, even if we possessed an authentic, uncorrupted manuscript, must by definition, have represented secondary evidence, at best. Surely there must be university level research on this question: i.e. the Persian, ancient Persian, or perhaps "middle" Persian sources, uncontaminated by Caesar and the Roman empire, and his successors, most notably, Constantine, regarding the original doctrines of Mithraism. Have the Muslims destroyed all the evidence then? What of the caves in XinJiang? When Roger writes of having been obliged to conduct extensive research on this question, searching for primary sources, I suppose, (quite likely in error) that his research was LIMITED to Roman/Greek sources, not unlike those you mentioned Stephan. I want to know which PERSIAN sources describe Mithraism. Has Roger, or anyone else, investigated those sources, or, are there none, anywhere in existence? With regard to the discussion about other members of the forum, I personally gain nothing from reading insults and barbs about which person's research is valid, and which invalid. Let's see the evidence, as Roger has pointed out, and then we can draw our own conclusions, without trading insults. Does any forum member have a link to some PERSIAN data? avi |
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06-25-2011, 02:41 PM | #52 | |
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But I would like to say that the recent books are a lot better. The Christ Conspiracy was dreadful on every level, as I think we all know. But when I had occasion to look at some of her recent books, I found that they were much better. Indeed one of them led me to an ancient author of whom I had never heard. She referenced Antiochus of Athens, the 2nd century astrologer, and this led me to translate his calendar and so learn about Graeco-Roman astrological writings. No work that is using those sort of sources is all bad. Unfortunately her judgement is as bad as ever. Instead of asking what the facts are, she still starts with a theory and tries to bend the facts around it. Once you read Antiochus, for instance, you quickly see that what she said based supposedly on his work was rubbish. But I enjoyed reading it anyway. All the best, Roger Pearse |
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06-25-2011, 02:52 PM | #53 | ||
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I confess that the question of whether we have any references in Persian literature, not to Mitra, but to Roman Mithras, is one that I have never considered. I had presumed that all the references would be to Mitra, as part of Zoroastrianism. I have never researched the sources for the latter, tho. Certainly research on it exists, tho. But I seem to remember reading that no Mithraeum -- those characteristic underground temples of Mithras -- is known from Persia. They are a Roman phenomenon. Quote:
Celsus would be discussing the Roman cult, not Zoroastrianism, of course. Just a word of caution: the actual text under discussion has not appeared. It's always good practice to *check* these -- any of us may have a senior moment. My own collection of literary references is here, which may help. I'd like to know which text precisely we are discussing. All the best, Roger Pearse |
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06-26-2011, 05:21 AM | #54 | |||
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Good Morning. I don't know anything about Garshuni text....the reference I had cited, was, I had thought, from a Persian web site, and I imagined authored by a Persian... Here it is again. Quote:
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06-26-2011, 11:30 AM | #55 | |
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06-26-2011, 12:06 PM | #56 | |
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06-26-2011, 12:34 PM | #57 | |
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One cannot help wondering how Franz Cumont, back in 1920's, who led the first excavation of Dura Europos, would have responded to this news, from last year's excavation in Angers:
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06-26-2011, 01:29 PM | #58 |
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Avi
I've been thinking about that for some time. I think the explanation has something to do with Christian opposition to anything man made. Read what Origen reports about Celsus. Christianity was a reaction - not only to Jewish sacrifices - but Judaism straying from the desert tabernacle concept. Reread Stephen's speech in Acts. I am fairly certain that Clement is describing the existence of a replica desert tabernacle in Alexandria (ekklesia refers to the congregation not a physical building originally - again see Acts use of this word). The Samaritan sect the Dositheans (who happen to be listed first among the heresies in Hippolytus's original syntagma according to Photius) were the first to insist upon a building-less veneration of God. I think Christianity either took this over or was indeed as Hippolytus's lost text implies - was a sect of Dositheanism. Abu'l Fath's list of Dosithean sects seems to include various traditions shared by the Christian heresiological texts. |
06-26-2011, 01:32 PM | #59 | |
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There is no doubt that according to Severus Al'Ashmunein at least there were no physical structures in Egyptian Christianity until the turn of the fourth century. One cannot wonder why a sect developed in association with Stephen's speech in Acts 6:8 - 8:1
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06-26-2011, 02:04 PM | #60 | |||||||
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We can see more of your hand waving dismissals on Mithra here in this thread: Mithra: The Pagan Christ Re: the last supper You may have misunderstood or you've purposely selected the 4th citation that was discussing the BETRAYAL between Osiris and Typhon, which is a major part of the last supper. How convenient that you failed to notice. If it was a snake it would've bitten you. So you proudly quoted the evidence only to then claim Acharya provided no evidence? It certainly is a pattern around here to claim she doesn't provide the evidence when she most certainly does. Quote:
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This blog addresses some last supper issues: Does Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians reveal a 'historical' Jesus? Re: triduum Quote:
People here such as yourself constantly make disparaging remarks about Acharya's work, which are usually flat false and then others have to try to correct it, which takes up far more time. There's so much of that going on here that I simply don't have the time to keep up with it. So, you've just helped me prove my point in my previous comment: Quote:
The same thing can be done with the rest of your disparaging remarks against Acharya S in your other posts - I simply don't have the time to spoon-feed you. From where I stand you're just being facetious. Just stop assuming the worst just because Acharya S is mentioned and you'll go far. |
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