Freethought & Rationalism Archive

badger3k · 05-31-2005, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

actually communal Karma is a part of Indian thought. Ramayana is an example...under a righteous king of Dharma who provides good leadership, the people are happy and prosperous as well and everyone performs his/her duty, everyone is nice to one another, earns money, eats well and is well off -- noone is poor or destitute -- everyone is learned and respectful to one another.

So one would say that untouchability occurred due to bad kings which led to bad people and divisions and Adharma, which allowed foreigners to easily overtake India.

In some sense, many nations and cultures had similar ideas, where the King was the country (and vice versa), and a good king meant a good land (I think the Arthurian legends contain some of this, as do others). Perhaps some vestige of the old "sympathetic magic" idea, where one thing (the ruler) stands for the whole (nation, tribe, etc).

perfectbite · 05-31-2005, 07:45 PM

Having gone so far as to uncover a universally accepted communality of karma my next question is: has the democratic process, in the absence of an all powerful sovereign (one who holds the power of life or death over its subjects) uncovered another aspect of individual karma that demands that each of us now be an informed voter?

Thomas II · 05-31-2005, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectbite

Having gone so far as to uncover a universally accepted communality of karma my next question is: has the democratic process, in the absence of an all powerful sovereign (one who holds the power of life or death over its subjects) uncovered another aspect of individual karma that demands that each of us now be an informed voter?

YES. Absolutely. And it's about time...

Dharma · 06-01-2005, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectbite

Having gone so far as to uncover a universally accepted communality of karma my next question is: has the democratic process, in the absence of an all powerful sovereign (one who holds the power of life or death over its subjects) uncovered another aspect of individual karma that demands that each of us now be an informed voter?

One must remember that democracy, which is a very young institution, has proven to be a very precarious institution -- Germany and I think Italy as well, were democracies (Germany was one for sure) that a leader like Hitler (who wanted to become all powerful sovereigns) were able to break and seize power by the will of the people!

Just recently President Bush did the same thing by fear of terrorism, censorship and bullying of people who disagreed with him politically became the norm for atleast 2 full years just because we had a war and everyone should be "patriotic" and unquestioning of the President during war.

If it weren't for a few brave people who constantly take a stand, it seems it would be very easy to destroy most democratic institutions by highly ambitious and rich people in the guise of war and patriotism and pure fear.

Make no mistake, the President is still a very powerful institution.

perfectbite · 06-01-2005, 10:20 AM

Last night I was reading that the Chinese emperor Qin (The one who built the first great wall of China, which wall by the way served more to keep the Chinese in than marauding barbarians out) was so disrespectful of history that he had all histories burned and the scholars who knew them buried alive to avoid the criticism of the emperor allowed for in those histories. He was also the emperor who became so incensed at a mountain storm that he had every treee on that mountain cut down and the whole mountain painted red, the colour of condemned criminals, was so fearful of his own demise that a meteor that was taken as a sign of his impending death was recovered, the meteor was melted down using fire and EVERYONE in the general area that the meteor had landed in was executed!

Ah the good old days.

Bush et al's appeal to the knee jerk reaction which they know is existent and they seem to have a special genius for working is what got him the vote this time around. To be perfectly honest I was pleased that so many, not enough but nearly enough, voters in the US didn't buy Bush et al's political/theological party line.

I agree that democracy is very young (the US is certainly older than its generally franchised democratic process) and has its faults. Democracy is called the best worst form of government after all but I wonder if there was a relatively recent sea change in human consciousness that allowed or even forced democracy to come about and if our awareness of democracy's responsibility (going beyond merely being literate to actually being intelligently literate. I.e. knowing enough not enough not to vote for an enticing platform of 'FREE FOOD FOR EVERY CITIZEN.' without reading the fine print where it says that the higher taxpayers get cordon blu breakfast, lunch and dinner at the taxpayer's expense and the poor each get a block of government cheese to do them for the week.)

Dharma · 06-01-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectbite

Last night I was reading that the Chinese emperor Qin (The one who built the first great wall of China, which wall by the way served more to keep the Chinese in than marauding barbarians out) was so disrespectful of history that he had all histories burned and the scholars who knew them buried alive to avoid the criticism of the emperor allowed for in those histories. He was also the emperor who became so incensed at a mountain storm that he had every treee on that mountain cut down and the whole mountain painted red, the colour of condemned criminals, was so fearful of his own demise that a meteor that was taken as a sign of his impending death was recovered, the meteor was melted down using fire and EVERYONE in the general area that the meteor had landed in was executed!

Ah the good old days.

Bush et al's appeal to the knee jerk reaction which they know is existent and they seem to have a special genius for working is what got him the vote this time around. To be perfectly honest I was pleased that so many, not enough but nearly enough, voters in the US didn't buy Bush et al's political/theological party line.

I agree that democracy is very young (the US is certainly older than its generally franchised democratic process) and has its faults. Democracy is called the best worst form of government after all but I wonder if there was a relatively recent sea change in human consciousness that allowed or even forced democracy to come about and if our awareness of democracy's responsibility (going beyond merely being literate to actually being intelligently literate. I.e. knowing enough not enough not to vote for an enticing platform of 'FREE FOOD FOR EVERY CITIZEN.' without reading the fine print where it says that the higher taxpayers get cordon blu breakfast, lunch and dinner at the taxpayer's expense and the poor each get a block of government cheese to do them for the week.)

I think if we take "the sword in the stone" metaphor, whoever has the purest heart should lead (be king)...than yes, democracy is the answer if we have people like George Bush and Clinton (as well as those horrible third world leaders) who have no possibility of ever succeeding in taking out that mythical sword.

perfectbite · 06-02-2005, 12:25 PM

Thank you all for replying to my question. It is not a straightforward subject. My thinking needed an intelligent sounding board and you all supplied it.

(Along with Answerer being the recipient of attitudinal karma incurred by others of his general community I do have an example of 'invisible' karma that must remain a mystery. There was some anecdotal evidence (a scientifically done survey whose results were countered by another scientific survey) that 'hard' water (lots of lime in ppm quantities) could have been responsible for a rash of sudden, fatal heart attacks. In Galena, Illinois there is so much lead in the water and soil that the local folks born and brought up there aren't at all renowned for their smarts. I live on a hillside in Northern California and just above the flatland, less than a mile down the hill from where I live the driving habits of the locals in that narrow area, less than 6 city blocks away, unlike other drivers in the area, are generally consistently quite reckless and inconsiderate and I often wondered if their water supply was bad. Perhaps through a dip in the water supply pipes all the lead or poisons in the local water supply collect at that particular point and there isn't enough of a flow to flush them out so they sit and 'stew' in the pipes. Purifying household potable water is an expensive and high maintenance proposition but perhaps the recent advent of decent non 'fizzy' bottled water for sale, here in the US anyway, counters such invisibly imposed karma. I have no idea.

A further question would be can or does modern medicine significantly counter the effects of karma? Again, I have no idea. For S.G. Buddha to have lived to be 80 years old in full possession of his faculties 2 and 1/2 millennia ago must have been something.)

Again, Thank You.

Thomas II · 06-03-2005, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectbite

(At the Harland and Wolf shipyard in N. Ireland where the Titanic was built, someone had painted on the side of the dock at its launching 'Even God couldn't sink this ship'. So much for that statement.)

Would being born into a community be considered inheriting that community's karma or would that be an example of the working of individual karma to be born into a community or to be a part of a community as the ship sank? It isn't clear to me.

The reason I bring this question up is to try to look at karma in such a way as to preclude needless mentation on and about karma through the eyes of the Buddhist laity. (Members of the Buddha's Sangha have, in effect, removed themselves from complex karma ideally allowing them to think more clearly.) Karma in its simplest form is apparently readily understood but in its more complex form is truly a mystery and I think that karma simple and karma complex are both mysteries and we only get to see the 1/10 of the iceberg that is evidence of simple karma but some Buddhist based beliefs have, it seems to me, taken simple karma as a guide for living which may be alright for monks and nuns but for the worldly is a gross simplification of karma (like saying we know there are more numbers but we only count up to 20 because that's how many fingers and toes we have and we don't need any more than 20 numbers) and such a view is only partially, simplistically true of reality and doesn't account for our possible responsibility to that greater reality in an age of democracy away from monarchic autocracy.

I suppose my question is directed specifically at the worldly:

If knowledge is power then does awareness incur active responsibility?

If active responsibility implies action (or work as Dharma puts it) then is the accrual of pleasant or unpleasant karma necessary to living a moral life?

Rinpoche, :notworthy

I don't know either what aspect of karma we are working on at any given time,or even if it matters...
Now,since you asked the worldly, I should respond... :rolling: :rolling:
Awareness incurs active responsibility.
But what kind of action,Rinpoche,what kind of action?
In a certain higher state of consciousness any action would be appropiate because it would be universally "in tune".
In other states who knows...
So I would say that our active responsibility should be towards finding that inner state of mind...
What?
But what if the barn is burning?
Then we should go get water!!! :rolling: :rolling:

Namaste...

perfectbite · 06-03-2005, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

So I would say that our active responsibility should be towards finding that inner state of mind...

#1. There is many a slip twixt cup and lip and although I do think that our active responsibility should be towards finding that inner state of mind... (too many states of mind to enumerate or detail) I see no reason that living in the world as an everyday worldly type of person should preclude both aims. In fact both aims, thinking and doing, would not only be mutually inclusive but would also, upon inspection, be eminently mutually compatible, worthwhile and productive.

#2. Even in jest the title of Rinpoche applied to me makes me extremely uncomfortable. Rather like one's underwear not sitting just quite right or the tags being scratchy. I know only too well that I am too fallibly human for such an honour.

Thomas II · 06-03-2005, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectbite

#1. There is many a slip twixt cup and lip and although I do think that our active responsibility should be towards finding that inner state of mind... (too many states of mind to enumerate or detail) I see no reason that living in the world as an everyday worldly type of person should preclude both aims. In fact both aims, thinking and doing, would not only be mutually inclusive but would also, upon inspection, be eminently mutually compatible, worthwhile and productive.

#2. Even in jest the title of Rinpoche applied to me makes me extremely uncomfortable. Rather like one's underwear not sitting just quite right or the tags being scratchy. I know only too well that I am too fallibly human for such an honour.

:wave:
I say it with GREATEST AFFECTION!! Not jest AT ALL!! Not even with a little bitty jest

In fact I was thinking "I like your wisdom..."
Look at my post again, now under such light...
I salute the Rinpoche in you...(Common, don't take me so seriously, nor take yourself so seriously...Now say to yourself: "Thomas likes me,he really, really likes me...He is laughing WITH me, not AT ME..." :wave: NAMASTE.

PS,ok,if it makes you uneasy I will not call you Rinpoche...

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05-31-2005, 07:45 PM	#22
perfectbite Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N. California Posts: 3,127	Having gone so far as to uncover a universally accepted communality of karma my next question is: has the democratic process, in the absence of an all powerful sovereign (one who holds the power of life or death over its subjects) uncovered another aspect of individual karma that demands that each of us now be an informed voter?

06-01-2005, 10:20 AM	#25
perfectbite Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N. California Posts: 3,127	Last night I was reading that the Chinese emperor Qin (The one who built the first great wall of China, which wall by the way served more to keep the Chinese in than marauding barbarians out) was so disrespectful of history that he had all histories burned and the scholars who knew them buried alive to avoid the criticism of the emperor allowed for in those histories. He was also the emperor who became so incensed at a mountain storm that he had every treee on that mountain cut down and the whole mountain painted red, the colour of condemned criminals, was so fearful of his own demise that a meteor that was taken as a sign of his impending death was recovered, the meteor was melted down using fire and EVERYONE in the general area that the meteor had landed in was executed! Ah the good old days. Bush et al's appeal to the knee jerk reaction which they know is existent and they seem to have a special genius for working is what got him the vote this time around. To be perfectly honest I was pleased that so many, not enough but nearly enough, voters in the US didn't buy Bush et al's political/theological party line. I agree that democracy is very young (the US is certainly older than its generally franchised democratic process) and has its faults. Democracy is called the best worst form of government after all but I wonder if there was a relatively recent sea change in human consciousness that allowed or even forced democracy to come about and if our awareness of democracy's responsibility (going beyond merely being literate to actually being intelligently literate. I.e. knowing enough not enough not to vote for an enticing platform of 'FREE FOOD FOR EVERY CITIZEN.' without reading the fine print where it says that the higher taxpayers get cordon blu breakfast, lunch and dinner at the taxpayer's expense and the poor each get a block of government cheese to do them for the week.)

06-02-2005, 12:25 PM	#27
perfectbite Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N. California Posts: 3,127	Thank you all for replying to my question. It is not a straightforward subject. My thinking needed an intelligent sounding board and you all supplied it. (Along with Answerer being the recipient of attitudinal karma incurred by others of his general community I do have an example of 'invisible' karma that must remain a mystery. There was some anecdotal evidence (a scientifically done survey whose results were countered by another scientific survey) that 'hard' water (lots of lime in ppm quantities) could have been responsible for a rash of sudden, fatal heart attacks. In Galena, Illinois there is so much lead in the water and soil that the local folks born and brought up there aren't at all renowned for their smarts. I live on a hillside in Northern California and just above the flatland, less than a mile down the hill from where I live the driving habits of the locals in that narrow area, less than 6 city blocks away, unlike other drivers in the area, are generally consistently quite reckless and inconsiderate and I often wondered if their water supply was bad. Perhaps through a dip in the water supply pipes all the lead or poisons in the local water supply collect at that particular point and there isn't enough of a flow to flush them out so they sit and 'stew' in the pipes. Purifying household potable water is an expensive and high maintenance proposition but perhaps the recent advent of decent non 'fizzy' bottled water for sale, here in the US anyway, counters such invisibly imposed karma. I have no idea. A further question would be can or does modern medicine significantly counter the effects of karma? Again, I have no idea. For S.G. Buddha to have lived to be 80 years old in full possession of his faculties 2 and 1/2 millennia ago must have been something.) Again, Thank You.

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