bgmark

the seventy weeks cannot be calculated as it means to be complete in Hebrew, just as 48 years were spent in exile in Babylon not 70 years, the last week involves 1290 years which is the abomination that causes desolation . This is not an even week either.

Steven Avery

Hi CX,

For some reason this seems to be a very popular skeptic canard. Actually there is no confusion, and no riding on two animals. The modern version minority text has a grammatical difficulty here however the historic Bible is fine. Probably the most complete thread is at ..

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...64#post4318164
A piece of evidence indicating that GJohn came from GMatthew

Shalom,
Steven

Larsguy47

I've noticed some Biblical scholars, notably those of Judaism, back away from any claim that the "70 weeks" prophecy is messianic, but interestingly apply it to the entire nation sometimes.

The prophecy is quite complex in some parts but the appearance of the anointed one after 69 weeks following the "word goes forth to rebuild Jeruslaem" is quite fundamental among Christian Biblical apologists as linking some event with the rebuilding of Jerusalem with the appearance of Christ at the time of his baptism. I'd say those fall into two categories, those linking the rebuilding of "Jerusalem" with Nehemiah's repair work on the wall (which took only 52 days) occcuring in the 20th of Artaxerxes, and per Martin Anstey, a more strict Biblicalist who dates this prophecy to the 1st of Cyrus, then contradicting much of the Persian chronology, claiming there are 82 years too many in this interval of 483 years between the 1st of Cyrus when the rebuilding of both city and temple began, and the baptism of Christ. But on either side of this, the baptism of Christ in 29BCE clearly establishes 455BCE as the date when the prophecy began.

Famous for their focus in chronology, for instance, Jehovah's witnesses date the beginning of this "70 weeks" prophecy to 455BCE, but link it to the 20th of Artaxerxes. Per conventional chronology, the 20th of Artaxerxes falls in 445BCE rather than 455BCE. So the witnesses establish a co-rulership between Darius and Xerxes of 10 years, based upon various references and move the rule of Artaxerxes back by ten years. Likewise, they came up with two ancient texts dated to year 51 of Artaxerxes I, where they reinsert the 10 years and thus are back in sync with secular history by the end of the rule of Artaxerxes I.

So while the fundamental prophecy is widely understood, still the application varies as far as confirming that can be fulfilled or not.

LG47

David B

I'd be interested in seeing comments on the posts above from the OP.

David B (has yet to give up hope)

Larsguy47

The 48 years is just one historical reference based upon pagan and revised Babylonian records, that is "copies" from a later period that vary with the Biblical timeline. So you can't compare the two. The Bible and Josephus are specific that 70 years elapsed from the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar, until the 1st of Cyrus. Thus the Bible's Neo-Babylonian Period is 26 years longer than the surviving secular Babylonian documentation.

As you noted, the pagan NB Period is only 58 years vs 70 years, representing a 22-year discrepancy. However, you do not compare the 70 years to the time of the fall of Jerusalem as many make that mistake, but 4 years later to the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar when the last exile took place (Jer. 52:30). It is those who were last deported off the land that spent a precise 70 years in exile while the land "rested" to pay back its sabbaths. Year 23 is 4 years later than year 19. So the true comparison is 74 years vs 48 years which is a 26-year difference.

Because of this, you cannot impose the NB chronology onto the Biblical timeline for this period. They are not adjustable. Biblicalists presume the NB Period records were revised, and those thinking the Bible is not true history usually think the Bible is nonspecific or inaccurate in this regard, thus all the debating back and forth.

So your statement that "just 48 years not 70" is a qualified references supported only by the pagan records, not by the Bible, even though, two astronomical texts, the VAT4956 and the SK400 which are foundations to the Babylonian dating both have "scribal errors" that can be linked to an alternative dating for the rule of Nebuchadnezzar which dates his year 23 to 525BCE which agrees with the Biblical dating for that year. So everyone, especially Biblicalists don't arbitrarily presume the Babylonian records and dating are true and accurate without question. Each reference must be considered separatedly and weighted against all the other evidence.

As far as the "abdomination causing desolation" is concerned, that's another part of the prophecy and has various interpretations. Your interpretation and application of the 1290 days simply doesn't work out with the "70 weeks". But it's no problem for those interpreting this at the time of the second coming. That is, the "70 weeks" prophecy is complex but it relates to BOTH the first and second coming when Christ arrives during th e70th week of a 70-week period. One occurring at the end of the week leading up to the first coming and the other the second.

Since the 1290 days and the "desolation" mentioned is the "great tribulation" that was prophesied, a one-time event that occurs during the "end times", you would not impose the 1290 days and the "abomination that causes desolation" to the first coming, but to the second. That "desolation" was the Holocaust, ending the 1290 days in 1947. The Messiah would arrive 45 years later during the 70th week. If you establish the end of the 1st-coming 70 weeks in 36CE, you need only count down four more, 1960 years (4 x 490) to discover the end of the 70 weeks for the second coming. 1960 plus 36 is 1996, thus the 70 weeks of the second coming is from 1506 to 1996 and the 70th week in which he arrives is from 1989-1996. The 1335 days, 45 years after the "end", that is, the end of the gentile times, falls to 1992 which is during this 70th week.

Thus the "abdomination causing desolation" or the "digusting thing that causes desolation" is whatever it is that causes the desolation of the Jews during the "great tribulation," the Holcaust, and that is the Nazis. It is "Gog of Magog" that causes this desolation and Magog is the father of the white descendants of Noah's eldest son, Japeth, considered the father of the white nations or Aryan nations. Shem is considered father to the Semitic peoples (Jews/Asiatics), and Ham the Hamitic (blacks and others), etc. Just a side point I think should have it's own topic if it is to be debated, however, of note the connection between the Jews being desolated by the white descendants of Magog confirms the interpretation.

Therefore, there is absolutely no problem with the prophecy, just have to understand it correctly so that it works and understand the Bible's chronology does not agree with this period of chronology. Generally, the Bible's dating is 26 years longer for the NB Period, and 82 years shorter for the Persian Period, combining the two (82-26) gives you a net deficit of 56 years for the Greek Period, that is, actual added years not adjusted by the NB Period.


LG47

Toto

Please note that this thread, started in 2003, was raised from the dead by a spammer who found every thread that mentioned the abomination of desolation and apended his website. I've removed as many as I can, but since this has already been commented on, I'll leave it for now.

Larsguy47

You are specific that this is in reference to the "Jewish messah" but that is not fulfilled by Jesus. Yet you are not specific as to in what way Jesus does not fulfill the Jewish messiah described in "Daniel." I would thus, like to know which specific prophecies in Daniel were not fulfilled. However, I must note that many persons are not aware that most of the times when the prophecy doesn't seem to fit Jesus, it is not a reference to the 1st coming but the second. Jesus' appearance, nature and identity is different for the second coming than the first.

Other "discrepancies" I've heard that are considered non-fulfillment are things like him being born of a virgin, etc. Something that can't be disproven is not considered a non-fulfillment.


It is just translated as "weeks"; the actual word is "heptads" which means sevens. So it is just translated into "weeks". But it could be a week of days or a week of years. In that regard, the fulfillment of the prophecy determines the reference. That is, did the messiah arrive 483 days after Jerusalem began to be rebuilt? Or 483 years? If years, then the "heptads" are "weeks of years" and not just a week of seven days.

LG47

Larsguy47

Of note, the Jewish position that the prophecy is a reference to the entire nation is apparent if you consider the desolation and "extermination" mentioned to refer to the Holocaust. That is, if the 70 weeks for the 1st coming ends in 36CE, you can calculate each subsequent 70 weeks down to our day, with the last one being from 1506-1996. If that's the case, the "cut-off" that begins the desolation is after 62 weeks, or 434 years, which + 1506 begins that desolation in 1940, which is about the time Hitler invades Poland and surrounds Warsaw, the highest concentration of Jews in exile in Europe. So the "messiah" being "cut off" in that reference is not the second coming or first coming messiah, but the Jewish nation as the "messiah" or anointed one. So there are actually three messianic references in Daniel 9: the first and second coming messiah individuals and the Jews themselves who become the messiah to the world since through them there is salvation to the entire world. The comparison of the people or "Jerusalem" to the messiach is found at Zechariah 3:1-5.

LG47

Larsguy47

Well, this is an interesting refinement. Please note, however, that there is a first and second coming. The first coming was focussed on sacrifice, but the second coming he comes as a king-priest "in the manner of melchizedek". Thus it is important to note that the 70-weeks prophecy is multilayered and references both the first and second coming as well as the Holocaust as the "great tribulation" connected with the Jews as the "messiah" as well. The Jewish nation is called "holy ones" throughout Daniel.

LG47

Larsguy47

Good question. The Jews used a lunisolar calendar that adjusted the lunar calender with the solar one. So I would think the "years" here would be lunisolar years, the usual Jewish year which sometimes was 12 months and sometimes 13.

LG47