JoeWallack

JW:
We agree that it is a Historical fact that the Christian claim that "The Jews" were responsible for the murder of Jesus has contributed to the murder of thousands/millions of innocent Jews in the last two thousand years. Therefore, this is the important issue here to me. Whether "The Jews" were in any way responsible for the death of Jesus, assuming he existed, is relatively unimportant to me as he was only one or at most 3 people and this supposedly happened thousands of years ago.

Having "The Jews" confess that they made accusations against Jesus which contributed to his death is exponentially better evidence that "The Jews" made accusations against Jesus which contributed to his death than merely having Christians attribute this confession to "The Jews".

The best potential authors here for evidence of accusations are, Paul, Philo and Josephus. Philo doesn't even mention Jesus, Paul never mentions any accusations and Josephus, in a passage we all would agree was Forged at least in part by Christians, says accusations were made but gives no specifics.

So, if you want to assert that "The Jews" traditionally confessed that they did make accusations against Jesus, what do you think was the specific accusation(s) and what is your related evidence? Again, considering that thousands/millions of Jews have been murdered because of this subject I demand that you have really good evidence to support the accusation that "The Jews" made accusations against Jesus that contributed to his death. Otherwise you look to me like someone who is asserting the truth of what is actually a Legend/Myth/Lie.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Ben C Smith

True. And very regrettable.

Agreed. I am certain some Jews at some times have made mistakes, and I do not think their progeny should be held accountable for those mistakes. The same holds true for Christians, Muslims, pagans... you name it.

Agreed.

Well, 1 Thessalonians 2.14-16 certainly implies that accusations were made. Or is this another of those passages that you are pretending, without argument, does not exist?

Agreed.

That was not my assertion. I said that I do not think they ever had any reason not to. That is, if or when we find a Jewish passage that admits to having at least participated in killing Jesus, that admission should not be why we reject the passage, if we indeed reject it.

But I am not going to get entangled with you over the rights and wrongs of Jewish-Christian relations for the past two millennia. The Christian persecution of Jews, alongside the crusades and the inquisition and many other atrocities, is one of the blackest of the many black marks across Christendom. If you wish to hold one of my arguments, made in good faith, accountable for that atrocity, that says a lot more about you than it does about me.

Ben.

Amaleq13

Crud. You've ruined my near disagreement with you. :frown:

JoeWallack

JW:
So you believe that the Talmud refers to the Jesus of the Christian Bible even though the Talmud never says "the Jesus of the Christian Bible". Sounds like denial by "The Jews", at least from your standpoint.

JW:
"So, if you want to assert that "The Jews" traditionally confessed that they did make accusations against Jesus"

Ben:
"That was not my assertion. I said that I do not think they ever had any reason not to."

JW:
Yes, what reason could "The Jews" possibly have for not wanting to confess that they were responsible for the murder of Jesus.

If there was or at least is a logical reason for "The Jews" to accuse Jesus in the first place that makes it more likely that "The Jews" would not deny accusing Jesus since they would than have had a logical reason to do so. In order for "The Jews" to have a logical reason to accuse Jesus we first have to determine what the accusation was and than determine it's logic.

I ask again, what do you think was the specific accusation(s) made by "The Jews". Your failure here to answer so far suggests that nothing definite is coming to your mind which should make you hesitate to have the position that "The Jews" would not deny they made accusations against Jesus, because you don't know or are at least unsure what the accusation was.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Zeichman

I'd like to help, if someone would be able to point me in the right direction. I'm assuming Perseus would be useful, as would some concordances.

Examples, anyone? This is including phrases translated "until this very day," "until this day," "until today," and "until now." I separated etiology from continuation, even though they are often both. Etiology always means until authorship unless I indicate otherwise.

Gen. 21:26 - Abimelech had not heard of his servants' theft until today
Genesis 32:4 - Jacob lived in Laban until now
Gen. 32:32 - [etiology] Israelites do not eat hip sockets
Exodus 7:16 - [continuation] Moses is to tell Pharoah that he has not listened to God until today (pre-first plague)
Exodus 9:18 - [lack of precedent] Heaviest hailstorm ever (pre-seventh plague)
Exodus 10:6 - [lack of precedent] locust swarm (pre-eighth plague)
Deut. 3:14 - [etiology] Havvot-jair's name lasts
Deuteronomy 10:8 - [etiology] Levites commanded to bless Lord, continue
Deut. 34:6 - [etiology?] No one knows Moses' burial place
Joshua 8:28 - [etiology] Ai named because of its destruction by Joshua
Josh. 10:27 - [etiology] Joshua hides five kings in the cave, they remain there
Joshua 13:13 [etiology] Geshurites and Maacath allowed to remain in Israel
Joshua 14:14 [etiology] Hebron is inheritance of Caleb
Joshua 15:63 [etiology] Jebusites left in Jerusalem
Joshua 23:8 - [continuation] Joshua commands Israel to remain faithful as they have done to this day
Judges 10:3 [etilogy] Havvoth-jair named after Jair
Judges 16:13 [continuation] Samson has not told Deliah his true weakness
Judges 19:30 [lack of precedent] Gibeah's crime
Ruth 2:7 [continuation] Ruth has not rested all morning
1 Samuel 1:16 [continuation] Hannah has been praying concernedly
1 Samuel 7:12 [continuation] the Lord helped Samuel & co. this far
1 Samuel 12:2 [continuation] Samuel has reigned from youth until today
1 Samuel 29:3 [continuation] Achish deems the "days and years" until now of David's service faultless
1 Samuel 29:6 [continuation] same as above
1 Samuel 29:8 [continuation] David asks Achish if he has not fought until today
2 Samuel 3:8 [continuation] Abner believes he is faithful to Saul
2 Sam 4:3 [etiology] Beerothites remain in Gittaim
1 Kings 9:21 [etiology] the gentile slaves of Solomon remain in the land
2 Kings 13:23 [continuation] Lord has been faithful since Abraham
2 Kings 17:23 [etiology?] Israel exiled into Assyria
2 Kings 20:17 [continuation] things stored up until today will be exiled
2 Kings 21:15 [continuation] Since the exodus Israelites angered God
1 Chronicles 9:18 [ended continuation] some folks no longer guard the gate
1 Chronicles 12:29 [continuation] Benjaminites loyal to Saul
2 Chronicles 8:8 - redaction of 1 Kings 9:21
2 Chronicles 20:26 [etiology] name of the valley of Beracah
Ezra 5:16 [continuation] Sheshbazzar until Ezra, the temple has been under construction
Nehemiah 9:32 [continuation] From Assyrian conflict until Ezra, things have been hard for Israel
Psalm 71:17 [continuation] from Psalmists' youth he has proclaimed God's deeds
Isaiah 39:6 - redaction of 2 Kings 20:17
Jeremiah 7:25 [continuation] God has sent Israel prophets since Assyrian times until Jeremiah's day
Jeremiah 25:3 [continuation] God has spoken to Jeremiah for 23 years
Jeremiah 25:18 [continuation] kings and officials make the towns of Judah a waste to Jeremiah's time
Jeremiah 36:2 [continuation] God has spoken to Jeremiah about things from Josiah's time until today
Matthew 11:23 [potential continuation] If Sodom had seen the signs in Capernaum, Sodom would be here now
Matthew 24:21// Mark 13:19 [lack of precedent] impending suffering
Matt. 28:15 [continuation] verse in controversy
Luke 16:16//Matt 11:12 [Continuation] John the Baptist until Jesus
John 2:10 [continuation] Good wine believed to have been preserved until late in the party
John 20:9 [ended continuation] resurrection now understood
Acts 23:1 [continuation] Paul's whole life has been with a clear conscience
Acts 26:22 [continuation] Paul has been helping God his whole life
Romans 1:13 [continuation] Paul has long desired to visit the Romans
Romans 8:22 [continuation] World has long been in labor pains
Romans 11:8 [continuation] God's curse of a sluggish spirit, deaf ears, etc. continues
1 Corinthians 4:13 [continuation] Apostolic ministry is still like "rubbish"
1 Corinthians 8:7 [continuation] some think of food set before idols as defiled
2 Corinthians 3:14 [continuation] from Moses until today, the Judeans' hearts are hard
Philippians 1:5 [continuation] Philipians have shared in the gospel since they started

I would have to imagine that an apocalyptic paradigm would shorten the time necessary to use the phrase, and different cultures would use it differently.

Someone else is going to have to try on Perseus, because my computer's internet connection is terrible at home.

Doug Shaver

The part where we can infer anything about Celsus' sources from something we can reasonably assume that Celsus himself actually said.

Ben C Smith

If the Sanhedrin 43a reference is not to Jesus, then it is to his brother by the same name. It says Jesus of Nazareth. What more could you ask for? And it includes the Jewish charges of sorcery and incitement.

I am not claiming that they would admit to murder. I am claiming that they would regard the death of Jesus as a just execution.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Wow. An offhand remark of mine turns into an itemized list. Thanks, Chris! Which do you think is the shortest verifiable time gap on the list?

Ben.

Ben C Smith

I know. I hate it when I miss a good opportunity to argue with you.

Ben.

Amaleq13

Well, it won't be this time but only because you happen to be correct.

I do not understand the resistance to accepting even the possibility that the author of Matthew is responding to an actual accusation known to himself and his audience.