Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Apikorus · 10-22-2006, 07:53 AM

DrJim, would you care to weigh in on this thread? I recently discovered your 2005 JBL article on the subject. Please note the palaeography discussion at the current end of the thread. Cheers.

LoungeHead · 10-22-2006, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

As allegory the wise men came from East of Asshur where the Tigris "flows" into the Euphrates that itself does not wind or twist or flow anywhere but just is. Eu-phrates means bright-mind which is constant in the same way that "I AM" just is. The gift of wisdom is needed to illuminate I AM, or one is forced to accept that God needs a flashlight to enlighten believers and that is just opposite to what Epiphany represents in this story.

Nah, I don't buy it. Pictures on Christmas cards of medieval time-travelling Ottoman Turks is enough allegory for me.

aa5874 · 10-22-2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Well, it was a "star", because that's what Matthew wrote. But I think the meaning was slightly broader than what we use today.

Still, it's an interesting question -- stars were the lights stuck in the firmament overhead (unless they fell as "falling stars"). Did people at that time think that stars were able to "stand over" a certain spot, to the extent that it is able to identify a single house? Does anyone know any non-Gospel examples of this?

It is not possible for a star to 'stand' over a house, as described in the Bible. Because of the massive distance of stars, if a star appears to be over your house, it will also appear to be over every house for miles around.

Clivedurdle · 10-24-2006, 12:38 PM

What comets were around when? It might give a clue to when this story was written!

Clivedurdle · 10-24-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

The closest perihelion passage to the time of Jesus are 11 BC and 66 AD. Neither event took place in Jesus' lifetime.

http://www.iki.rssi.ru/nineplanets/halley.html

Its return time also varies from 76 to 80 years.

Might these stories be post 146?

Rome's nine hundredth birthday in A.D. 147/148

http://www.roman-emperors.org/tonypis.htm

bajan · 10-24-2006, 03:18 PM

Yes - it could have been a comet but comets have a very variable 'lifetime' and since there is no known comet that could have appeared at the likely dates then it will remain just a theory.

Whatever the likely astronomical explanation I think it a bit far-fetched to imagine the phenomenon identified with one particular house. My bible says the "star" stopped over the place. I take this to mean the "star" was at the zenith, but any star at the zenith for one observer would also appear to be the zenith for anyone in Bethlehem and surrounding districts. It is simply impossible for the object to have been a star if it stopped over a house, and would not have identified the house anyway.

By the way, does the story imply that these guys travelled only by night ... for all that distance ... and with all that gold in their treasure chests?

Clivedurdle · 10-24-2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

141 Mar 20, The 6th recorded perihelion passage of Halley's Comet.

http://timelines.ws/01AD_299AD.HTML

Clivedurdle · 10-24-2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Ptolemy

In the Syntaxis (or Almagest), Ptolemy (second century A.D.) synthesised mathematical astronomy into a coherent whole which rendered his predecessors obsolete and would dominate Western and Islamic thought until the sixteenth century. He also wrote works on astrology, geography, optics and music.

Nothing reliable is known of Claudius Ptolemy's life that cannot be deduced from his surviving works; only a few brief and unsupported biographical statements are made by much later sources. 'Claudius' suggests he held Roman citizenship, 'Ptolemy' that he was of Greek descent and lived in Egypt. The astronomical observations that he listed as having himself made cover the period 127-141 AD, from which it may be inferred that he was active in the first and into the second half of the second century AD, and all of those observations are listed as made in Alexandria, so it is likely that he lived in or near that city, still a great centre of learning at that time. In the Middle Ages, before the twelfth century, when his work was being discovered and studied in detail by Islamic scholars, little more than his name was remembered in the Latin West; as early as the Encyclopedia of Isidore of Seville (c.600 AD) he was confused with the dynasty of Ptolemies who had ruled Egypt after Alexander the Great, and from that sprang an iconographic tradition, lasting a thousand years, in which Ptolemy was regularly represented wearing a crown.

Wonder what his effect on the NT was!

http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/starry/ptolemy.html

seven8s · 10-24-2006, 03:51 PM

Yes, well you know why God uses a flashlight don’t you? For the same reason Neanderthal man used a club…………

Must have been a real mean bottle………..made her sing that way………..

How’s that for wisdom? Rotflmao

aa5874 · 10-24-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bajan

Whatever the likely astronomical explanation I think it a bit far-
By the way, does the story imply that these guys travelled only by night ... for all that distance ... and with all that gold in their treasure chests?

I don't think there is a likely astronomical explanation. Anyone involved in astronomy would not wander around in the night hoping that a 'star' would eventually stand over some place.

And in any event, the wise men worshipped the wrong baby, the baby never became King of the Jews, his last words were, according to Matthew, My God, my God , why hast thou forsaken me?

Wrong star, wrong baby.

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10-22-2006, 07:53 AM	#31
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	DrJim, would you care to weigh in on this thread? I recently discovered your 2005 JBL article on the subject. Please note the palaeography discussion at the current end of the thread. Cheers.

10-24-2006, 12:38 PM	#34
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	What comets were around when? It might give a clue to when this story was written!

10-24-2006, 03:18 PM	#36
bajan Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Eastern Caribbean Posts: 45	Yes - it could have been a comet but comets have a very variable 'lifetime' and since there is no known comet that could have appeared at the likely dates then it will remain just a theory. Whatever the likely astronomical explanation I think it a bit far-fetched to imagine the phenomenon identified with one particular house. My bible says the "star" stopped over the place. I take this to mean the "star" was at the zenith, but any star at the zenith for one observer would also appear to be the zenith for anyone in Bethlehem and surrounding districts. It is simply impossible for the object to have been a star if it stopped over a house, and would not have identified the house anyway. By the way, does the story imply that these guys travelled only by night ... for all that distance ... and with all that gold in their treasure chests?

10-24-2006, 03:51 PM	#39
seven8s Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 727	Yes, well you know why God uses a flashlight don’t you? For the same reason Neanderthal man used a club………… Must have been a real mean bottle………..made her sing that way……….. How’s that for wisdom? Rotflmao

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