WVIncagold

Once again a Theist brings up Ole Zeke's prediction but leaves out the whole temple on the mountain part of the prediction out of it. doesn't even try to explain it. doesn't even acknowledge i even ask the question.
So i will ask it again HL:
An important part of your prophecy is that they (Hebrews) would get the country as you assert but the most important part is they will rebuild the temple and commit sacrifices AGAIN!
Explain your prophecy being the truth when the important parts (temple) cannot be because a Muslim masque occupies the temple mount. Also how in this day in age are you going to get Hebrews to start sacrifice of animals on the altar?
I will keep posting this for any lurkers out there so they can see your disingenuous attempts at proselytizing. No matter what you assert unless Xians can get the Jewish community to 1) destroy the Muslim Masque 2) build the Jewish temple and 3) kill animals on the altar your attempts of a fulfilled prophecy are just prattle from a ignorance or you purposely are trying deceive. therefore i prefer to think your just ignorant rather then bringing down the wrath of your god for lying.

Half-Life

Yes, but Jesus never said "Boy it would be kind of cool if Jerusalem crumbled."

he said "Jerusalem will crumble" and he was 100% right.

See, anytime there is a prophecy atheists always try to dismiss it.

Skeptics lie about being neutral. Anytime they read a prophecy they say to themselves, "OK, how can I find a way to show this is NOT a prophecy?" That is forcing yourself to be blinded.

Half-Life

There is nothing in the prophecy that says there must be a Hebrew temple or sacrifices. The prophecy states that Israel will be one of the most important religious sites.

it says NOTHING about having no mosques.

Show me your claims.

mg01

The more I delve into things the more I lean toward a post 722 construction. Bible Unearthed was the 1st book I read on the subject years ago. Wanting to gain wider perspective (their conclusions were considered "radical") I researched others ideas on both sides of the fence.

With the DH there is good reason to see multiple traditions that were merged, but given that archeology shows how much anochronistic the claims are, plus the notion that widespread literacy post "bronze age collapse" doesn't begin to appear until after 850, there is little if any reason to believe that fully developed written traditions existed any earlier. The mixing of N & S after 722 either kicked off the literary tradition altogether or added life to a feble existing one.

Many assume a long tradition of development between J and E where portions were exchanged over time, but an equally valid explination is that one copied the other in rapid succession (I think J copied and amplified E). By the time of Hezakiah they both existed. D cobbles together N/S "king lists" (primarily deriving N from S), weaves in the tales of the prophets from Shiloh, and expanding on the idea that both N/S traditions originated from one ancient souce (the hill folk of the 12-11 century that later moved down into the valleys) adds the "united kingdom" idea. Josiah uses the whole tradition and tries to re-take Israel through clouded scheme and gets killed by Necho.

During the exile the 'prophetic' tradition develops and expands on D's Elija and Elisha stories. It expands on the "these things happened because the house of Jacob/Israel failed to properly worship YHWH, their 'Savior' (because he saved them from Egypt)" that was initially founded on the fall of Israel to Assyria. New prophysies are written toward the Babylonians and traditions develop that long for the "glory days" of David, chastise and prasie the "bene-adm/son of man" (metaphorical mankind or even Israel specifically), and preach of a forthcomming "day of YHWH" where at some point in the future he show up and smite the "enemies of Israel" and set a new "messiah" (aka YHWH's anointed/chosen king a-la David) to rule this forthcomming earthly restoration of the (invented) "glory days" of the "Kingdom of Israel".

Lo and behold Cyrus shows up, allows them to return and is himself claimed to be messiah. Yet troubles remain and Judah/Israel is not joined and the "day of YHWH" still doesn't happen and Judah continues to be dominated by foreign powers for several centuries. The scriptures begin to be re-interpreted and though foreign influence YHWH gets promoted to the Greek monad and the earthly "day of YHWH" becomes the Persian judgement day that will happen at the end of time after which a new "kingdom of God" will begin.

By the 1st century, eschatological ascetics like John the Baptist are running around criticizing the establishment and looking someone to blame for the failed preditions of the prophets. The rebelious Judeans, still determined to establish self-rule and unable to learn from history, challenge the Romans and this time loose everything. Following in the footsteps of the prophetic tradition, drawing from the scriptures and mixing in reformative ideas, remanents of the earlier ascetics write diatribes blaming the establishment for failing to "see the signs" and making them out to be the scapegoats of the events of 70 CE.

Once again polemical traditions are turned to hope and though the "day of YHWH" and the restoration of the "Davidic Empire" may no longer be expected, hopes the forthcomming "kingdom of God" (spiritual/eschatological) remained. (Despite the fact that different groups couldn't agree on exactly what this meant). YHWH, the original "Saviour" (who saved them from Egypt) is supplanted by Jesus, who saves one from final judgement.

WVIncagold

Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. (Ezek. 37:26-28)

(Ezek. 45:1-6). Jerusalem will need to be totally rebuilt in the form of a perfect square, with three gates to a side (Ezek. 48:31-34). It must be 4,500 cubits square, or 1.5 miles square. The temple must lie at least 1.5 miles to the north of Jerusalem's walls. (note: these dimension will not fit onthe temple mount)

At the second coming, every island and mountain are moved out of their places (Rev. 6:14; 16:20). This means that the crust of the earth will disintegrate. In order for the earth to be inhabitable following the second coming, the earth would have to be recreated at the beginning of the 1000 years. Yet there is no indication that there will be any restoration of the earth at that time. Therefore, Ezekiel's temple must be rebuilt before the second coming. source (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/pap...ism-israel.htm) Just because theist like to jump goal post and link to revelations.

You may want to actually talk to some Jews on the belief of this point, after all its their religion your stealing your ideas from.

and this is what is there now.
source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount)

Features Unique to Ezekiel's Temple
No wall of partition to exclude Gentiles (you) (compare Ephesians 2:14) The Gentiles were previously welcome in the Outer Courts, but excluded from the inner courts on pain of death.


No Court of Women (compare Galatians 3:28 (Outer Court and Inner Court only)

No Laver (see Ezekiel 36:24-27, John 15:3)

No Table of Shewbread (see Micah 5:4, John 6:35)

No Lampstand or Menorah (see Isaiah 49:6, John 8:12)

No Golden Altar of Incense (Zechariah 8:20-23, John 14:6)

No Veil (Isaiah 25:6-8, Matthew 27:51)

No Ark of the Covenant (Jeremiah 3:16, John 10:30-33)

Major Changes to the Altar: The sacrificial Altar will be approached by a ramp from the East. Previous altars were all approached from the South. Now there will be stairs to the altar, not a ramp as previously. The top of the altar is now described by the Hebrew word "ariel" [Isaiah 29:1] meaning "hearth of God" or "lion of God." [Rev. 5:5]. (Ref. 3)
source (References
1. Ezekiel, by Ralph Alexander, Moody Press, Chicago, 1976.

2. Ezekiel, by John B. Taylor, Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries, Intervarsity Press, Downers Grove, Illinois, 60515, 1969.

3. John W. Schmitt, Messianic Temple Ministries, 1633 SE 38th Portland, OR 97233. (John Schmitt was a speaker at one of our conferences on the Temple Mount several years ago in Jerusalem. He spoke at that session on Ezekiel's Temple. He is from Portland and had built several models of Ezekiel temple and for some years was presenting his model at churches in his area. Photo: http://www.pauljab.net/temple/Johnsmodel.html. I (LTD) have known John many years and encouraged him, when we first got acquainted, to travel to Israel and I urged him to write a book. He is the only one I know who writes these days on Ezekiel's yet-to-be-built temple, so his research is much needed. At last John's book is out and is one you will want in your library: Messiah's Coming Temple: Ezekiel's Prophetic Vision of the Future Temple by John W. Schmitt and J. Carl Laney Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, MI 1997. 188 pages, paperback, about $11.00. See also The Millennial Temple, by Paul Jablonowski

4. Israelology: The Missing Link in Systemic Theology, by Arnold G. Fruchenbaum, Ariel Ministries Press, Box 3723, Tustin, CA 92681, 1992.)

also try and read Zeke 43 21-27

21 Thou shalt also take the bullock of the sin-offering, and it shall be burnt in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary
22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a he-goat without blemish for a sin-offering; and they shall purify the altar, as they did purify it with the bullock.
23 When thou hast made an end of purifying it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
24 And thou shalt present them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt-offering unto the LORD.
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin-offering; they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
26 Seven days shall they make atonement for the altar and cleanse it; so shall they consecrate it.
27 And when they have accomplished the days, {S} it shall be that upon the eighth day, and forward, the priests shall make your burnt-offerings upon the altar, and your peace-offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.' {S}

Have you even read the actual prophesy or are you just spouting shit some Xian website has posted without researching it? I do conclude your speaking from ignorance.

all bolding is mine

Precisely my point however poorly stated. Its a failure as prophesy. I used your theist point of reference simply to show i am not getting the information from some atheist website (outside the revelations post). You may just want to read the entire prophecy. in line with OP your asserting that this is the end times because Jerusalem is rebuilt and Zeky was right.
And i am saying based on your own book your spouting nonsense. What i beleive is irrelevant. In order to make your assertion correct Isreal has to have many things happen according to the prophesy. 4 of those major factors are
Isreal must be reclaimed (half right because it still does not have Jordon)
the twelve tribes must return ( as long as three of my coworkers are still here this aint happened yet)
the Temple must be rebuilt (not while the Muslims hold that ground)
and The Hebrews must return to animal sacrifice (fat chance of this happening)

So now i ask again. How do you explain your position when the temple mount has a Muslim Mosque and when do you want Hebrews to begin animal sacrifice? Two simple questions.

Magnus Armstrong

Um...

Wasn't Israel created as a nation in part BECAUSE that prophecy was well known?

spin

I like this approach. When someone tries to be open and honest to you, the serpent speaks, "[s]keptics lie..." Instead of being content with your faith, you bolster it with so-called prophecies, as though you are able to read the bible without 1800 years of apologetics hiding the texts from you, texts whose contexts you know very little about anyway, making their significance and purposes obscure to the reader. The irony of your final comment will be missed on yourself... Now run along and peddle your snake oil elsewhere and think before you accuse people of lies.


spin

Roland

No, someone saying something will happen in the future is just someone saying something will happen in the future. If that predicted event happens to come about, that's no evidence that the person had some special power to see into the future. It just shows he made a prediction that happened to come true.

What I don't get is why someone would then immediately jump to the conclusion that said person had the power to predict the future rather than just chalking it up to coincidence or good guessing or any number of other more reasonable possibilities.

James Brown

Yes. I'm much more impressed when people who don't know the prophecy ahead of time fulfill them.

And by the way, if the Jews are so in tune with God that they can predict the future with this uncanny precision, how is this support for Christianity? Shouldn't Half-Life be an Orthodox Jew by that criteria?

Half-Life

Here's a question:

Do Jewish people believe that the prophecy came true about israel in 1948?

or do they disbelieve it because it was in the NT?